8 ms·

Thankfully it isn't quite that simple for electronics in the US. If it is sold commericially, it has to be registered with the FCC. In this way, you at least k

by kop316 7y ago

Thankfully it isn't quite that simple for electronics in the US. If it is sold commericially, it has to be registered with the FCC. In this way, you at least know if it has WiFi, LTE, etc, and can see the module that is installed on it. This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it. Heck, maybe that is something like iFixit could do, have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities.

echelon 7y ago
The average consumer won't be able (or even know) to disable built-in telemetry. As you can see from Facebook, invasive ads, DNA kits, and Alexa, most won't even care. We've lost this battle. Our warnings weren't strong enough to win over those interested in convenience.
- duckMuppet 7y ago
  Well if they aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to hide...
  - mnm1 7y ago
    So you're the guy walking around naked, taking shits and pissing in public while giving strangers all your bank logins. All because you have nothing to hide. How dignified. Now please stop.
  - hellisothers 7y ago
    For those downvoting I’m assuming this is sarcasm :D
    - duckMuppet 7y ago
      :)
    - rhizome 7y ago
      Here's a joke that's just as good: you know what happens when you assume, don't you?
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  And those pesky opt-outs are irrelevant anyway: we’ll just interpolate them from the available data.
- x0x0 7y ago
  I disagree. See the CA privacy law (CCPA) and the successor that will be on the ballot in November. Those give us the chance to establish meaningful defaults.
- maksimum 7y ago
  > We've lost this battle. I think you could look at the battle/war from a different perspectives, and come up with different conclusions. In the mainstream (whatever that is?) it appears that convenience wins. And hardware/software vendors seem to make the assumption that customers won't complain if their data is harvested. I think that's where you're coming from? On the (privacy) enthusiast things, the horizon looks much better. We've got great software that makes self-hosting easier: FreeNAS, Nextcloud, Docker, Plex, NixOS, etc. We have more choice in phones: we can still use "dumbphones", or use open source operating systems, or choose manufacturers with better privacy track records. I'm not familiar with consumer electronics as much, but buying low end/dumb devices (TVs, appliances) is still viable. And the open source home automation movement keeps getting traction with hardware and software.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > We have more choice in phones: we can still use "dumbphones", or use open source operating systems, or choose manufacturers with better privacy track records. There are zero options on the market right now that come close to a modern smartphone.
    - Avamander 7y ago
      PinePhone? Librem? Even freed Android phones are actually very close.
  - setpatchaddress 7y ago
    Dumb TVs are not available anymore. I would gladly buy one with decent image quality if such existed.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      So just buy a large display. And sit closer. Also makes it easier to watch DVDs and torrented stuff.
    - hypnotode 7y ago
      They do, they just don't call them TVs. Look up commercial digital displays, exact same brands with the same screens as the consumer model but no tracking and bloatware. Of course, without the subsidies from selling your data, they're going to run you an extra 30-50%
thih9 7y ago
> have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities. We have no guarantee these devices would continue to work after such operation.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Like Zune's DRM (luckily before Zune died they let purchasers download MP3s). I wonder what funny failure scenarios we'll see in the future. On the topic of Samsung, their "smart" Fridge had issues when Google changed its API: https://support.google.com/calendar/forum/AAAAd3GaXpEWgy9gKkxhFo https://support.google.com/calendar/forum/AAAAd3GaXpEWgy9gKk... , but at least that's some stupid feature and not a fridge's main feature...
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    Games have been becoming unplayable due to DRM servers shutting down. IoT devices are becoming bricks when they go out of support. DRM and internet dependency are the ultimate tools in capitalisms planned obsolescence toolbox. You no longer have to wait for a product to fail, you can simply remotely destroy it so the customer buys a new one.
    - pdkl95 7y ago
      While topics like privacy and DRM are important, framing the discussion in those terms de facto obscures/distracts from the issue of property rights. Using someone's property (to e.g. to spy on them) after they purchased it is usually some sort of crime: trespassing, theft, vandalism, etc. If "intellectual property" is "property", then destroying someone's property (with DRM or other remote control) is a crime such as vandalism. The manufacturer lost their rights at the first sale of the good to the customer. This is why tech companies have been pushing to reframe the sales of their goods as a service. They abuse[1] copyright by claiming yu need to license the software/firmware. This is like claiming when you purchase a book it isn't your property because they only "licensed" the book's story. However, trying to extend copyright (which only grants rights related to making more copies) into property rights is a misuse of copyright[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_misuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_misuse
PaulWaldman 7y ago
Can there be a balance? I'd love to remotely control and view the status of my appliances without sending the telemetry to the OEM. Physically disabling all the radios would prohibit this functionality.
- NeutronStar 7y ago
  Whitelist you IP?
- ljm 7y ago
  I reckon that, given enough time, it’ll go the same was as everything else. Either you pay a subscription to remote it (and the inevitable ads that will appear), or you pay a premium for something without that functionality. I don’t see how this stops. Advertisers will stop at nothing to invade your life, and businesses are more than happy to facilitate them if they get some more money out of it.
  - PaulWaldman 7y ago
    Agreed. Adding to this, consumers in general are failing to quantify the cost of giving up their personal data.
    - ljm 7y ago
      Even more, how do we quantify the price of our attention and our lives? You can use Facebook for free but as well as having hyper-targeted adverts thrown in your face, they are also vacuuming any single point of individuality you might possess, because everyone in the industry is brokering the data like a private commodity that we can never actually know anything about. IMO, Facebook is not worth the price of that level of pervasive, perverse, surveillance. Neither is Google. Things like GDPR absolutely help but they're not retroactive, and chances are there is no way of clearing all of that up given how many millions of servers might have a trace of it. Our current situation is where technology is leeching from humanity but humanity is okay with it because they get stuff for free.
babuskov 7y ago
> This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it. Wouldn't opening the device void the warranty?
- kop316 7y ago
  Nope! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/04/11/those-stickers-warning-that-repairs-will-void-your-warranty-are-nonsense-ftc-says/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/04/11...
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    That's for removing a sticker. Not for removing a whole module or messing with wiring.
    - kop316 7y ago
      The law quoted states a manufacturer cannot invoke a void warrenty for modifications unrelated to the warrenty claim. For example, if I replace the radio in my car, the manufacturer cannot said i voided my warrenty if the engine has problems (unless the modification did damage it). So I would argue yes, if i disable the radios and something unrelated is damaged, then the warranty is still valid.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        No doubt it's a judgment call for the court, but your car radio is farther from the engine then your TV wifi module is from the TV receiver. Your TV is all likely to be on the same DC circuit, maybe even all soldered together on one board.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Why are people so worried about preserving the warranty on their electronics? If it lasted 30 days and you don’t break it while futzing with it, it’s likely to work through the warranty period anyway. If it doesn’t, buy another one. TVs are ridiculously inexpensive now. I see people online waiting years (perhaps 5% of their life) to mod their cars or electronics for fear of losing the warranty. Side note: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents manufacturers from failing to honor their warranty because of totally unrelated modifications (or for opening a device without damaging it). “Warranty void if sticker removed” is almost certainly inaccurate legally.

by kop316 7y ago

echelon 7y ago

The average consumer won't be able (or even know) to disable built-in telemetry. As you can see from Facebook, invasive ads, DNA kits, and Alexa, most won't even care. We've lost this battle. Our warnings weren't strong enough to win over those interested in convenience.

duckMuppet 7y ago
Well if they aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to hide...
- mnm1 7y ago
  So you're the guy walking around naked, taking shits and pissing in public while giving strangers all your bank logins. All because you have nothing to hide. How dignified. Now please stop.
- hellisothers 7y ago
  For those downvoting I’m assuming this is sarcasm :D
  - duckMuppet 7y ago
    :)
  - rhizome 7y ago
    Here's a joke that's just as good: you know what happens when you assume, don't you?
Scoundreller 7y ago
And those pesky opt-outs are irrelevant anyway: we’ll just interpolate them from the available data.
x0x0 7y ago
I disagree. See the CA privacy law (CCPA) and the successor that will be on the ballot in November. Those give us the chance to establish meaningful defaults.
maksimum 7y ago
> We've lost this battle. I think you could look at the battle/war from a different perspectives, and come up with different conclusions. In the mainstream (whatever that is?) it appears that convenience wins. And hardware/software vendors seem to make the assumption that customers won't complain if their data is harvested. I think that's where you're coming from? On the (privacy) enthusiast things, the horizon looks much better. We've got great software that makes self-hosting easier: FreeNAS, Nextcloud, Docker, Plex, NixOS, etc. We have more choice in phones: we can still use "dumbphones", or use open source operating systems, or choose manufacturers with better privacy track records. I'm not familiar with consumer electronics as much, but buying low end/dumb devices (TVs, appliances) is still viable. And the open source home automation movement keeps getting traction with hardware and software.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > We have more choice in phones: we can still use "dumbphones", or use open source operating systems, or choose manufacturers with better privacy track records. There are zero options on the market right now that come close to a modern smartphone.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    PinePhone? Librem? Even freed Android phones are actually very close.
- setpatchaddress 7y ago
  Dumb TVs are not available anymore. I would gladly buy one with decent image quality if such existed.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    So just buy a large display. And sit closer. Also makes it easier to watch DVDs and torrented stuff.
  - hypnotode 7y ago
    They do, they just don't call them TVs. Look up commercial digital displays, exact same brands with the same screens as the consumer model but no tracking and bloatware. Of course, without the subsidies from selling your data, they're going to run you an extra 30-50%

thih9 7y ago

> have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities. We have no guarantee these devices would continue to work after such operation.

netsharc 7y ago
Like Zune's DRM (luckily before Zune died they let purchasers download MP3s). I wonder what funny failure scenarios we'll see in the future. On the topic of Samsung, their "smart" Fridge had issues when Google changed its API: https://support.google.com/calendar/forum/AAAAd3GaXpEWgy9gKkxhFo https://support.google.com/calendar/forum/AAAAd3GaXpEWgy9gKk... , but at least that's some stupid feature and not a fridge's main feature...
- jdnenej 7y ago
  Games have been becoming unplayable due to DRM servers shutting down. IoT devices are becoming bricks when they go out of support. DRM and internet dependency are the ultimate tools in capitalisms planned obsolescence toolbox. You no longer have to wait for a product to fail, you can simply remotely destroy it so the customer buys a new one.
  - pdkl95 7y ago
    While topics like privacy and DRM are important, framing the discussion in those terms de facto obscures/distracts from the issue of property rights. Using someone's property (to e.g. to spy on them) after they purchased it is usually some sort of crime: trespassing, theft, vandalism, etc. If "intellectual property" is "property", then destroying someone's property (with DRM or other remote control) is a crime such as vandalism. The manufacturer lost their rights at the first sale of the good to the customer. This is why tech companies have been pushing to reframe the sales of their goods as a service. They abuse[1] copyright by claiming yu need to license the software/firmware. This is like claiming when you purchase a book it isn't your property because they only "licensed" the book's story. However, trying to extend copyright (which only grants rights related to making more copies) into property rights is a misuse of copyright[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_misuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_misuse

PaulWaldman 7y ago

Can there be a balance? I'd love to remotely control and view the status of my appliances without sending the telemetry to the OEM. Physically disabling all the radios would prohibit this functionality.

NeutronStar 7y ago
Whitelist you IP?
ljm 7y ago
I reckon that, given enough time, it’ll go the same was as everything else. Either you pay a subscription to remote it (and the inevitable ads that will appear), or you pay a premium for something without that functionality. I don’t see how this stops. Advertisers will stop at nothing to invade your life, and businesses are more than happy to facilitate them if they get some more money out of it.
- PaulWaldman 7y ago
  Agreed. Adding to this, consumers in general are failing to quantify the cost of giving up their personal data.
  - ljm 7y ago
    Even more, how do we quantify the price of our attention and our lives? You can use Facebook for free but as well as having hyper-targeted adverts thrown in your face, they are also vacuuming any single point of individuality you might possess, because everyone in the industry is brokering the data like a private commodity that we can never actually know anything about. IMO, Facebook is not worth the price of that level of pervasive, perverse, surveillance. Neither is Google. Things like GDPR absolutely help but they're not retroactive, and chances are there is no way of clearing all of that up given how many millions of servers might have a trace of it. Our current situation is where technology is leeching from humanity but humanity is okay with it because they get stuff for free.

babuskov 7y ago

> This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it. Wouldn't opening the device void the warranty?

kop316 7y ago
Nope! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/04/11/those-stickers-warning-that-repairs-will-void-your-warranty-are-nonsense-ftc-says/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/04/11...
- lonelappde 7y ago
  That's for removing a sticker. Not for removing a whole module or messing with wiring.
  - kop316 7y ago
    The law quoted states a manufacturer cannot invoke a void warrenty for modifications unrelated to the warrenty claim. For example, if I replace the radio in my car, the manufacturer cannot said i voided my warrenty if the engine has problems (unless the modification did damage it). So I would argue yes, if i disable the radios and something unrelated is damaged, then the warranty is still valid.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      No doubt it's a judgment call for the court, but your car radio is farther from the engine then your TV wifi module is from the TV receiver. Your TV is all likely to be on the same DC circuit, maybe even all soldered together on one board.
sokoloff 7y ago
Why are people so worried about preserving the warranty on their electronics? If it lasted 30 days and you don’t break it while futzing with it, it’s likely to work through the warranty period anyway. If it doesn’t, buy another one. TVs are ridiculously inexpensive now. I see people online waiting years (perhaps 5% of their life) to mod their cars or electronics for fear of losing the warranty. Side note: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents manufacturers from failing to honor their warranty because of totally unrelated modifications (or for opening a device without damaging it). “Warranty void if sticker removed” is almost certainly inaccurate legally.