5 ms·

I would argue averaging across all degrees is makes no sense. STEM degrees do pay off. Liberal arts degrees can pay if you want to boost a specific skill and ha

I would argue averaging across all degrees is makes no sense. STEM degrees do pay off. Liberal arts degrees can pay if you want to boost a specific skill and have a solid plan for using it. E.g. getting an English degree to become a more persuasive speaker while promoting your otherwise sound and solidly executed startup. Aside from those 2 examples there are plenty of colleges with a business model of selling overpriced useless degrees to people who can't be bothered to do some due diligence before getting a loan. Those degrees won't pay off and despite sharing the "college" name, I wouldn't average between the 2 groups.

seem_2211 7y ago
Does STEM actually pay off, or does engineering/technology pay off? I've got a few friends who work in science, and it seems to be a pretty poorly paying field, with a real lack of job prospects, unless you secure a job at a government research department.
- achenatx 7y ago
  30 years ago, I was trying to decide what to study. I wanted to go to medical school and my parents said that I should study electrical engineering. The reason, if I decided not to go to medical school a biology BS degree was almost useless and it was just as easy to get into medical school with an engineering degree as a biology degree. I ended up getting a microbiology degree and an EE, went to medical school (MD PhD) but dropped out. I was able to get a great job doing programming, so Im relatively sure they were right. With my kids Im using the same approach. With regards to grad school, my parents' philosophy was if you could not get grad school funded by an RA or TA, then you had no business going.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  It's really just the engineering degrees that pay off. The sciences degrees are only obviously worth it if you then go on to become a doctor, but that's more schooling and the undergrad degree isn't a strict requirement anyway. Most of my friends with degrees in math, physics, etc., just ended up being software engineers anyway. So the degree "paid off" for them in the same way a CS degree would, but they would've been better served just going CS.
- washadjeffmad 7y ago
  Former government research scientist here. It also does not pay well. In fact, funding for scientific research was cut by the Obama administration, leading to the closure of all but two of our branches and displacing dozen of workers amidst a recession. When I transferred to academia, I took on an underpaying role, and found that the same shenanigans were afoot there. Now, we are approaching the end of the 2000s population boom, and in five years, universities will have many fewer prospective applicants for the following decade at least. The ripples of the contraction caused by the gambling of a few spoiled bankers will be felt again in another 20 years with a much smaller and resource-constrained workforce, still reeling from the burdens of loan debt and overpriced housing. Unless Sanders gets his way, that is. It's probably best I plan my exit in advance this go-round.
- prepend 7y ago
  I have friends with stem phds who aren’t making tons of money. But, I think in general, stem degrees pay well. I try to use reliable data sets [0] to help understand because anecdotes are hard for me to make decisions. The data are almost always a few years old so they aren’t perfect and could miss a new trend. But it’s the best I know how to use. [0] figure 4 shows stem 3rd highest after health and management https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/collegepayoff.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...
  - seem_2211 7y ago
    Fair enough. When it comes to career advice, I prefer anecdotes to large data sets, because there are far too many variables, and it's too easy to torture numbers.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      I take it you didn’t go the STEM route then. ;) More seriously, anecdotes are terrible when giving advice to fresh high school seniors on their way to graduation. When people think of degrees in certain fields, they gravitate to the successful people (“I’ll study acting and make millions like the famous actors I know”, etc). They don’t think of and aren’t even aware of how many people get those degrees and fail hard. That’s why they need to see the placement and salary stats to understand what their up against. Once they understand a French Comparative Literature degree has approximately no economic value, then they can make that decision knowingly. Papering over that by pointing out the one leader that happens to have that degree does more harm than good.
      - ipython 7y ago
        If that friend is himself an actor, or someone else who can influence hiring decisions, then I would say go for it! At the end of the day, people hire you. Not data. After all, who says that a teenager can tell apart badly interpreted data any better than poor anecdotes?
        7y ago
- mdorazio 7y ago
  Even in the engineering field, pay is massively different for different types of engineers. Civil and mechanical engineers generally aren't making anywhere near what software engineers make in top markets, for example. Similar story with chemists working in biotech vs. physicists doing fundamental research.
  - someguydave 7y ago
    “Software engineering” is not a recognized engineering discipline.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      Who cares, though. It's known what is meant by that phrase.
      - someguydave 7y ago
        Kinda? What exactly is the difference between software engineering and programming?
    - nradov 7y ago
      IEEE would disagree. http://www.cs-tcse.org/ http://www.cs-tcse.org/
      - someguydave 7y ago
        Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.
        nradov 7y ago
        Did Texas recently secede from the US? Because it looks like they offer PE licensing for Software Engineering. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm
prepend 7y ago
I think large demographic averages are still useful, but certainly you can look at more specific lifetime earnings for specific degrees. I’m just aware of general “all bachelor” data that’s from reputable sources like the US SSA [0]. I’m talking about averages as there are certainly schools that suck. I would take my statement to mean that every single college is a net benefit. But as a general guidance, no other information available, a degree will net me more money over my lifetime. If I were giving advice to someone thinking about schools, I would have them review the particular school, keep costs low, and study with a particular career in mind, stem/medicine a good target. [0] https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education...

seem_2211 7y ago

Does STEM actually pay off, or does engineering/technology pay off? I've got a few friends who work in science, and it seems to be a pretty poorly paying field, with a real lack of job prospects, unless you secure a job at a government research department.

achenatx 7y ago
30 years ago, I was trying to decide what to study. I wanted to go to medical school and my parents said that I should study electrical engineering. The reason, if I decided not to go to medical school a biology BS degree was almost useless and it was just as easy to get into medical school with an engineering degree as a biology degree. I ended up getting a microbiology degree and an EE, went to medical school (MD PhD) but dropped out. I was able to get a great job doing programming, so Im relatively sure they were right. With my kids Im using the same approach. With regards to grad school, my parents' philosophy was if you could not get grad school funded by an RA or TA, then you had no business going.
CydeWeys 7y ago
It's really just the engineering degrees that pay off. The sciences degrees are only obviously worth it if you then go on to become a doctor, but that's more schooling and the undergrad degree isn't a strict requirement anyway. Most of my friends with degrees in math, physics, etc., just ended up being software engineers anyway. So the degree "paid off" for them in the same way a CS degree would, but they would've been better served just going CS.
washadjeffmad 7y ago
Former government research scientist here. It also does not pay well. In fact, funding for scientific research was cut by the Obama administration, leading to the closure of all but two of our branches and displacing dozen of workers amidst a recession. When I transferred to academia, I took on an underpaying role, and found that the same shenanigans were afoot there. Now, we are approaching the end of the 2000s population boom, and in five years, universities will have many fewer prospective applicants for the following decade at least. The ripples of the contraction caused by the gambling of a few spoiled bankers will be felt again in another 20 years with a much smaller and resource-constrained workforce, still reeling from the burdens of loan debt and overpriced housing. Unless Sanders gets his way, that is. It's probably best I plan my exit in advance this go-round.
prepend 7y ago
I have friends with stem phds who aren’t making tons of money. But, I think in general, stem degrees pay well. I try to use reliable data sets [0] to help understand because anecdotes are hard for me to make decisions. The data are almost always a few years old so they aren’t perfect and could miss a new trend. But it’s the best I know how to use. [0] figure 4 shows stem 3rd highest after health and management https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/collegepayoff.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...
- seem_2211 7y ago
  Fair enough. When it comes to career advice, I prefer anecdotes to large data sets, because there are far too many variables, and it's too easy to torture numbers.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    I take it you didn’t go the STEM route then. ;) More seriously, anecdotes are terrible when giving advice to fresh high school seniors on their way to graduation. When people think of degrees in certain fields, they gravitate to the successful people (“I’ll study acting and make millions like the famous actors I know”, etc). They don’t think of and aren’t even aware of how many people get those degrees and fail hard. That’s why they need to see the placement and salary stats to understand what their up against. Once they understand a French Comparative Literature degree has approximately no economic value, then they can make that decision knowingly. Papering over that by pointing out the one leader that happens to have that degree does more harm than good.
    - ipython 7y ago
      If that friend is himself an actor, or someone else who can influence hiring decisions, then I would say go for it! At the end of the day, people hire you. Not data. After all, who says that a teenager can tell apart badly interpreted data any better than poor anecdotes?
      - 7y ago
mdorazio 7y ago
Even in the engineering field, pay is massively different for different types of engineers. Civil and mechanical engineers generally aren't making anywhere near what software engineers make in top markets, for example. Similar story with chemists working in biotech vs. physicists doing fundamental research.
- someguydave 7y ago
  “Software engineering” is not a recognized engineering discipline.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Who cares, though. It's known what is meant by that phrase.
    - someguydave 7y ago
      Kinda? What exactly is the difference between software engineering and programming?
  - nradov 7y ago
    IEEE would disagree. http://www.cs-tcse.org/ http://www.cs-tcse.org/
    - someguydave 7y ago
      Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.
      - nradov 7y ago
        Did Texas recently secede from the US? Because it looks like they offer PE licensing for Software Engineering. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm

prepend 7y ago

I think large demographic averages are still useful, but certainly you can look at more specific lifetime earnings for specific degrees. I’m just aware of general “all bachelor” data that’s from reputable sources like the US SSA [0]. I’m talking about averages as there are certainly schools that suck. I would take my statement to mean that every single college is a net benefit. But as a general guidance, no other information available, a degree will net me more money over my lifetime. If I were giving advice to someone thinking about schools, I would have them review the particular school, keep costs low, and study with a particular career in mind, stem/medicine a good target. [0] https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education...