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>I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. If you don't mind, can I ask some questions to expand upon this? First, does this coun

>I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. If you don't mind, can I ask some questions to expand upon this? First, does this count living expenses? Many students can save greatly living at home, but this requires going to a college near your home, for there to even been a college near your home, and decent enough relationship with the parents/guardian. If we don't cover room/board/etc. it greatly limits freedom of picking without people still having to take on some level of debt, but makes the overall cost cheaper. If we do cover room/board/etc. then what sorts of limits are on it? Second, you say free for all, but does all mean the people who take more than 4 years to finish a 4 year degree? What sort of upper limits? What about people who have a degree but want to go back (perhaps there degree is in a field that is currently shrinking)? Would there be an expected level of academic achievement that must be met to continue? Many people I've spoken to in the past will quickly point out that many nations already solve these problems, but I also find what the person envisions and how it works in other countries do have some level of disagreement (especially with regards to merit qualifications and the actual experience itself), though I haven't been able to verify if this is really the case or not.

pnathan 7y ago
These are my observations/opinions based on both graduate and undergrad school in the US. (1) In this utopian world, college owned dorms would be part and parcel of the free college. This allows control of the costs rather than allowing landlords to profit off of the university. The US has massive issues with expensive housing, even around rural universities. (2) I'd set the limit at, say, 6 years. 5 years isn't uncommon, 6 is rare, and 7 is .... extremely rare, and questionable for a full-time student... Generally speaking. I'd expect a 2.5 GPA or better. I have no real interest in an unending "free ride". But I do want an educated citizenry without enormous debt burdens. I will shoulder the tax burden that I, a high-earning citizen, will have to pay out, in order to get an educated citizenry with an interest in taking risks. I think a lot of the lack of new businesses etc in the last 20 years can be directly traced to that. And on a more nuanced scale, I think the lack of a wide college education has reduced the discourse in the country (prior cheap college in the US was largely contingent on the Cold War and the GI bill; it's very complicated, but I do think it helped us collectively in the 50s-70s). Anyway. I'm not per se drawing off of any other country's specific educational systems. I'm not personally fond of the West European systems I've looked at, although they do solve these issues to some level. The US has enormous resources and enormous capability.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >I think the lack of a wide college education has reduced the discourse in the country (prior cheap college in the US was largely contingent on the Cold War and the GI bill; it's very complicated, but I do think it helped us collectively in the 50s-70s). I feel in this case, waiting for college is too late and the improvements should be done at the grade school level. Only a fraction of the population goes to college and as such even if the education from college was perfected, it would only apply to that fraction of the population. While controlling costs may help increase that fraction some, it would not help with those who find college not in their future due to academic limitation instead of financial ones. Overall, my own personal problem with this proposal comes from my own experience at college, where I saw numerous people who took 5+ years doing so because they prioritized fun over education. Taking minimum course loads, partying instead of studying, etc. I think much stricter requirements on academic achievement would be needed for me to be willing to support such a plan. What do you think of a shorter term solution of allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy?
  - pnathan 7y ago
    > I feel in this case, waiting for college is too late and the improvements should be done at the grade school level. Only a fraction of the population goes to college and as such even if the education from college was perfected, it would only apply to that fraction of the population. 25% or so of the population or so attends at least one semester of college. If I recollect the statistics right. Which is.... pretty dang good. You're not wrong in that k-12 education needs to improve. That said, people have been moaning about k-12 education for the last 200 years in the US, and, well, I'm not personally particularly keen about hunting with that dog. In part because k-12 is considered a guaranteed education, so you ipso facto have to consider policies with address the entirety of the bell curve of the population, and the stakeholders are peculiarly passionate (their kids!). College has the profound advantage in that there's some flavor of choice in it, so you can wind up executing on certain rule changes without the enormous knife fight involved in k-12 politics. I'm not disagreeing. But I think if we spec out the political fight between "federally mandate a substantial change in learning social sciences, history, civics, & philosophy across the US by Congress" (the required subjects for a competent civic education) and "free college for all", my money is that free college for all, with a free pony too, will happen decades before the other. > I saw numerous people who took 5+ years doing so because they prioritized fun over education. Taking minimum course loads, partying instead of studying, etc. I didn't see that, much. There was some. Very very small proportion in my experience. I went to state schools in Idaho, mostly around the engineering departments. Business departments or frats maaaaay have had different student populations. I recognize your concern though. That is why I think > 6 years should be a fairly hard cutoff for government supported college. 5 years was pretty common for people who switched majors or had a rough semester. 6 years was rare. > What do you think of a shorter term solution of allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy? I'm in favor of that!

pnathan 7y ago

These are my observations/opinions based on both graduate and undergrad school in the US. (1) In this utopian world, college owned dorms would be part and parcel of the free college. This allows control of the costs rather than allowing landlords to profit off of the university. The US has massive issues with expensive housing, even around rural universities. (2) I'd set the limit at, say, 6 years. 5 years isn't uncommon, 6 is rare, and 7 is .... extremely rare, and questionable for a full-time student... Generally speaking. I'd expect a 2.5 GPA or better. I have no real interest in an unending "free ride". But I do want an educated citizenry without enormous debt burdens. I will shoulder the tax burden that I, a high-earning citizen, will have to pay out, in order to get an educated citizenry with an interest in taking risks. I think a lot of the lack of new businesses etc in the last 20 years can be directly traced to that. And on a more nuanced scale, I think the lack of a wide college education has reduced the discourse in the country (prior cheap college in the US was largely contingent on the Cold War and the GI bill; it's very complicated, but I do think it helped us collectively in the 50s-70s). Anyway. I'm not per se drawing off of any other country's specific educational systems. I'm not personally fond of the West European systems I've looked at, although they do solve these issues to some level. The US has enormous resources and enormous capability.

SkyBelow 7y ago
>I think the lack of a wide college education has reduced the discourse in the country (prior cheap college in the US was largely contingent on the Cold War and the GI bill; it's very complicated, but I do think it helped us collectively in the 50s-70s). I feel in this case, waiting for college is too late and the improvements should be done at the grade school level. Only a fraction of the population goes to college and as such even if the education from college was perfected, it would only apply to that fraction of the population. While controlling costs may help increase that fraction some, it would not help with those who find college not in their future due to academic limitation instead of financial ones. Overall, my own personal problem with this proposal comes from my own experience at college, where I saw numerous people who took 5+ years doing so because they prioritized fun over education. Taking minimum course loads, partying instead of studying, etc. I think much stricter requirements on academic achievement would be needed for me to be willing to support such a plan. What do you think of a shorter term solution of allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy?
- pnathan 7y ago
  > I feel in this case, waiting for college is too late and the improvements should be done at the grade school level. Only a fraction of the population goes to college and as such even if the education from college was perfected, it would only apply to that fraction of the population. 25% or so of the population or so attends at least one semester of college. If I recollect the statistics right. Which is.... pretty dang good. You're not wrong in that k-12 education needs to improve. That said, people have been moaning about k-12 education for the last 200 years in the US, and, well, I'm not personally particularly keen about hunting with that dog. In part because k-12 is considered a guaranteed education, so you ipso facto have to consider policies with address the entirety of the bell curve of the population, and the stakeholders are peculiarly passionate (their kids!). College has the profound advantage in that there's some flavor of choice in it, so you can wind up executing on certain rule changes without the enormous knife fight involved in k-12 politics. I'm not disagreeing. But I think if we spec out the political fight between "federally mandate a substantial change in learning social sciences, history, civics, & philosophy across the US by Congress" (the required subjects for a competent civic education) and "free college for all", my money is that free college for all, with a free pony too, will happen decades before the other. > I saw numerous people who took 5+ years doing so because they prioritized fun over education. Taking minimum course loads, partying instead of studying, etc. I didn't see that, much. There was some. Very very small proportion in my experience. I went to state schools in Idaho, mostly around the engineering departments. Business departments or frats maaaaay have had different student populations. I recognize your concern though. That is why I think > 6 years should be a fairly hard cutoff for government supported college. 5 years was pretty common for people who switched majors or had a rough semester. 6 years was rare. > What do you think of a shorter term solution of allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy? I'm in favor of that!