10 ms·

Brutal New York - 1965/95

215 points by px 16y ago

AlexMuir 16y ago
Three years ago people would read that and feel glad that those areas have improved. Today I read it and feel sad that we are inevitably heading back into similar days.
- klbarry 16y ago
  Really? What signs do you see in NYC of heading back to those days? I live pretty fearlessly in most places, and I used to take the subway late, late at night all the time. The only dangerous places are really some parts of the Bronx.
  - evgen 16y ago
    FWIW, this recent recession is currently considered an anomaly because crime rates did not go up. When the economy slowed down everyone braced for a spike in the various crime rates that seems to inevitably follow such an event, and they waited...and waited...
    - chipsy 16y ago
      Some of this could be attributed to having much better opiates for the masses these days. A phone, a game console, or an old Internet-capable computer can all provide a near-limitless, cheap, side-effect-less escape. This wasn't the case in 1990 - the technologies were there but not mature and widespread.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - sudonim 16y ago
    I have a friend who is a petite white girl with blonde hair. She lives in the bronx and takes the subway home late at night. When I asked her about feeling unsafe, she said that no one harasses her and she hasn't been mugged.
- matsur 16y ago
  While fiscal issues and a good dose of gov't ineptitude are obvious, I see nothing pointing to a fall back into the abyss NYC was in ~20 yrs ago. What do you think has changed in the past 3 years that leads you to this conclusion? The gentrification of Brooklyn?
- b_emery 16y ago
  As a side note here's an interesting article about how technology has affected prostitution in NYC: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_sextrade/all/1 http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_sextrade/all/1
- cletus 16y ago
  I don't see it that way at all. Disclaimer: I say this as someone from Australia who has only lived in NYC for a matter of months. I see the fate of NYC--at least Manhattan--as being very much like that of Paris. Paris is now basically an enclave for the wealthy (in the 20 arrondisements). The people who keep the city that way live somewhere else. Singles come to the city and live in expensive cramped apartments for the Paris life. You see the same thing happen increasingly in Manhattan. Up until the 1960s there was (and still is) a view for NYC being for all the people, not just the rich. For this reason you have programs like rent control/stabilization so "key workers" (as they'd be called in London, which faces similar issues) can afford to live there. Up until the 1960s, NYC had a very socialist mentality. Education for NYC residents was free at NYU. In the 1970s the golden goose that paid for all this died. Crime rose. The middle class moved to the suburbs. The tax base dropped and industry (NYC had a heavy port industry up to this point) went elsewhere, creating unemployment. In the 70s, NYC almost went bankrupt until it was bailed out by union pension funds and ultimately the Federal government. Starting in the late 70s with Koch and then with Guiliani the city, from my understanding, radically changed. This was due to a combination of economic change as well as a change in policing and other policies. I think it would be fair to say that NYC--particularly Manhattan--is now largely gentrified. Where there were race riots in Alphabet City in the 80s and you'd only go to Avenue D at your own peril, now they have a Whole Foods. Even in the 90s Times Square was the butt of many jokes from the likes of David Letterman and I can remember his standup bits often talking about the hookers in Times Square. It was up until the 80s and 90s a red light district. Now? It's basically Disneyified. Some complain about this change, either saying the NYC has lost its grit and charm (probably true) and that NYC is no longer for all people (also possibly true), but NYC has an important constraint: the available land is limited. As the city grows, this will inevitably go up. Of course it can go down if the city is abandoned, much like parts of Baltimore have been and NYC was in the 70s and 80s. So I see NYC as becoming America's Paris--possibly Monte Carlo. This shift if anything is hugely responsible for drops in crime. The sad fact is that crime doesn't travel far. Move the poor people elsewhere and the crime goes with them. It's why the Bronx, which has had much crime and poverty, can still have rich enclaves like Riverdale just a few miles from a ghetto. There are huge advantages to urbanization. I don't see this trend diminishing. As people tend to move to cities, New York will grow. While it grows (or at least doesn't shrink), it will become increasingly gentrified. This says nothing about the state of poverty in the US. You cannot take the state of NY as a barometer for that, good or bad.
b_emery 16y ago
The decrease in crime in NYC over the lase few decades is just remarkable. I remember reading about the problems of AIDS and crack, and just thinking there was no hope. I would have never thought it could turn around like it did. Gladwell's "The Tipping Point" had some pretty good evidence that crime can be thought of as an epidemic. I'd love to read more on the subject if anyone has suggestions.
- Tichy 16y ago
  I think in Freakonomics a study is cited that claims what actually curbed the rise of crime was a change in abortion laws (rather than the "no broken windows" theory). Not sure if that was one of the things in Freakonomics that was later shown to be false, though.
  - primodemus 16y ago
    yes it has been disputed. See: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HLjarwtM95Erz45QPP0pDWul8rc_20061127.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HL... and http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700 http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700
    - b_emery 16y ago
      Thanks for those. The dispute has an interesting source: "In other words, Messrs Donohue and Levitt did not run the test they thought they had—an “inadvertent but serious computer programming error”, according to Messrs Foote and Goetz"
- drawkbox 16y ago
  Here's the murder graph from 1920 to present. Amazingly bad spike from 65-95. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYC_murders.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYC_murders.PNG
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  I'd vaguely expect the rise in ATMs to be a factor. The ability to exist with a minimum of cash would tend to make casual theft much less appealing.
maxklein 16y ago
The U.S has come a long way since then. I wonder what happened to all those drug addicted people - where do they live now?
- kloncks 16y ago
  There are still significant parts of New York City where these sights are common. [edit] By "these sights", I am responding to the question on where "Drug Addicted People" go. "These sights" = "Drug Addicted People" not the specific content of these pictures.
  - catshirt 16y ago
    care to elaborate? new york city is fascinating.
  - chrisaycock 16y ago
    I live in New York and I've never seen anything as gruesome as this photos.
    - kloncks 16y ago
      Someone asked where these druggies moved after these photos were taken. I just said there are still areas in New York City that can have these characters. I was responding to that specific question. It's not like you can't find druggies on the streets anywhere in NYC. Just because a lot of the city has cleaned itself up doesn't mean there isn't anywhere that's still in ruins. An example: Some areas of The Bronx are still run-down, no?
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
    - sudonim 16y ago
      Agreed. I live in New York too. I go all over the city. I have not sought out the "Worst Neighborhood", but I have been to sketchy neighborhoods in all the boroughs and nothing looks like those pictures.
Jun8 16y ago
I read the book excerpt that is linked (http://www.american-pictures.com/english/book/book-9.htm http://www.american-pictures.com/english/book/book-9.htm) an it's fascinating!
Dn_Ab 16y ago
1965ish. This is where, when Hip Hop was born. Probably a lot of you turn your nose down* at this angry crime glorifying inferior 'form of noise'. But look at the conditions of these kids and what they had to work with, is it any surprise that they would be so pissed? Now look at today, not so many years after and against large odds; those kids have created an international culture with music, dance, stories, poetry - a veritable complex art form that touches the lives of hundreds of millions of people all over the world and gives, gave hope to those who had nothing else. This, at least is something that a community of hackers and entrepreneurs can appreciate. That is the true message of hip hop that has been lost by the bastardizing filteration process of media and people not so intimately connected to its origins - including descendants of the visionaries, who despoil the art and see it as only a means to get rich quick and stack up on some biches. Damned Entropy. It speaks something of both the human ability to persevere and the unique aspects of the U.S. where people in such adverse coordinates can still go on to create. such great things. I was a teeny bit hurt (not offended) by the Cr48 warning agains't exposure to rap. yes i am aware that rap, heck music is a subset of hip hop self.StepOfSoapBox()
- potatolicious 16y ago
  Hear hear. For those who haven't had a lot of exposure to rap, I highly encourage you to explore the early roots of rap and hip-hop; you will find that much of it is extremely socially conscious, in ways more authentic and more compelling than long, drawn-out exposes and journal reports. And then mainstream rap took a dive off a cliff into meaningless misogyny, bling, and euphemisms involving skeet shooting.
  - noinput 16y ago
    Rap today is a mashup of old lyrics, over-engineered (and unnecessary) beats and a sad use of Autotune. I used to DJ for years and couldn't stand where the music was going, but the classics are considered classic for a reason, in my book at least. Listening to, and I mean really listening to the lyrics of true rappers that started and built the movement up is inspiring. Much of it is the obvious "Hoes & Cash", but there is almost always a reason they bring it up. It was either about what they strived to get to, or the rewards of their hustle and struggle to break out of the streets they grew up on. It truly is a unique form of expression that very few other music forms can touch.
Duff 16y ago
My family moved away from NYC in the late 80's because they couldn't afford to send us to the Catholic school, and the middle school that I was going to be sent to had some issues with violence. Violence like kids burning up cars with molotov cocktails.
ilamont 16y ago
I visited NYC on a regular basis from 1987 to 1990, to see friends in Brooklyn, NYU and northern NJ. It seems hard to imagine now, but I95 had abandoned, jacked cars on the shoulder, right in the middle of the city. At some grim housing estate visible from one of the train or aboveground subway lines, I remember seeing thick trail of garbage a hundred feet long covering a wide stairway going down an adjoining hillside to another street. Lots of people sleeping rough in Penn Station, and aggressive panhandling. Natives warned me not to take the subway past a certain time. Despite this environment -- or because of it -- there was also a lot of interesting cultural activity taking place in the city. Someone mentioned hip-hop originated there; it was also where American punk rock got off the ground, not to mention all kinds of art and theater activity. The food then, as is now, was excellent.
VladRussian 16y ago
very familiar pictures - that was depiction of life of working people in the US in the Soviet media when i was a child.
- arihelgason 16y ago
  Apparently the KGB tried to recruit the photographer, Jacob Holdt. He then tried to stop his book being used for propaganda. That probably didn't stop it from happening, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Holdt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Holdt
javanix 16y ago
Unfortunately, places like these still exist. Read 'The Corner' by David Simon (creator of The Wire and Treme) if you're interested in a more modern take on the ghetto. Take home message: the war on drugs in its current form is not working and the side effects are places like this, completely cut off from normal society, almost completely out of reach outside of an economic revival (like happened in Harlem).
flip 16y ago
http://gurlgoestoafrica.tumblr.com/ http://gurlgoestoafrica.tumblr.com/ The author needs to read this and get a life. Stop focusing on the downsides and actually do some work. It's as though people want to entirely forget the past and merely see the present. This post is, entirely, ignorant and racist.
- flip 16y ago
  Furthermore, shame on HN for taking on the liberal agenda and feeling pity. It's one thing to point out a problem. But to point out a problem without offering a solution? This is pathetic. For the first time, I am embarrassed to be part of this community. Way to be objective like the logical type we aspire to be guys! You've really let me down by even allowing this to reach the front page. This does not help me write code better... in any way. You have exploited HN by posting, and REALLY? upvoting this kind of bullshit.
mikecane 16y ago
I find it odd that this link has gained such traction. Months ago I posted a link to Holdt's original American Pictures site and it sunk like a stone. I'm sure this has happened to other people here too. No figuring out what will or won't pop.
rlmw 16y ago
For some reason when I clicked this link, I assumed it would be picture of brutialist architecture [0]. Interesting photos nonetheless. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture
godber 16y ago
Later in that thread there are links to other threads that include pictures of Harlem in recent times: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=404013 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=404013 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=405109 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=405109

215 points by px 16y ago

Three years ago people would read that and feel glad that those areas have improved. Today I read it and feel sad that we are inevitably heading back into similar days.

klbarry 16y ago
Really? What signs do you see in NYC of heading back to those days? I live pretty fearlessly in most places, and I used to take the subway late, late at night all the time. The only dangerous places are really some parts of the Bronx.
- evgen 16y ago
  FWIW, this recent recession is currently considered an anomaly because crime rates did not go up. When the economy slowed down everyone braced for a spike in the various crime rates that seems to inevitably follow such an event, and they waited...and waited...
  - chipsy 16y ago
    Some of this could be attributed to having much better opiates for the masses these days. A phone, a game console, or an old Internet-capable computer can all provide a near-limitless, cheap, side-effect-less escape. This wasn't the case in 1990 - the technologies were there but not mature and widespread.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- sudonim 16y ago
  I have a friend who is a petite white girl with blonde hair. She lives in the bronx and takes the subway home late at night. When I asked her about feeling unsafe, she said that no one harasses her and she hasn't been mugged.
matsur 16y ago
While fiscal issues and a good dose of gov't ineptitude are obvious, I see nothing pointing to a fall back into the abyss NYC was in ~20 yrs ago. What do you think has changed in the past 3 years that leads you to this conclusion? The gentrification of Brooklyn?
b_emery 16y ago
As a side note here's an interesting article about how technology has affected prostitution in NYC: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_sextrade/all/1 http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_sextrade/all/1
cletus 16y ago
I don't see it that way at all. Disclaimer: I say this as someone from Australia who has only lived in NYC for a matter of months. I see the fate of NYC--at least Manhattan--as being very much like that of Paris. Paris is now basically an enclave for the wealthy (in the 20 arrondisements). The people who keep the city that way live somewhere else. Singles come to the city and live in expensive cramped apartments for the Paris life. You see the same thing happen increasingly in Manhattan. Up until the 1960s there was (and still is) a view for NYC being for all the people, not just the rich. For this reason you have programs like rent control/stabilization so "key workers" (as they'd be called in London, which faces similar issues) can afford to live there. Up until the 1960s, NYC had a very socialist mentality. Education for NYC residents was free at NYU. In the 1970s the golden goose that paid for all this died. Crime rose. The middle class moved to the suburbs. The tax base dropped and industry (NYC had a heavy port industry up to this point) went elsewhere, creating unemployment. In the 70s, NYC almost went bankrupt until it was bailed out by union pension funds and ultimately the Federal government. Starting in the late 70s with Koch and then with Guiliani the city, from my understanding, radically changed. This was due to a combination of economic change as well as a change in policing and other policies. I think it would be fair to say that NYC--particularly Manhattan--is now largely gentrified. Where there were race riots in Alphabet City in the 80s and you'd only go to Avenue D at your own peril, now they have a Whole Foods. Even in the 90s Times Square was the butt of many jokes from the likes of David Letterman and I can remember his standup bits often talking about the hookers in Times Square. It was up until the 80s and 90s a red light district. Now? It's basically Disneyified. Some complain about this change, either saying the NYC has lost its grit and charm (probably true) and that NYC is no longer for all people (also possibly true), but NYC has an important constraint: the available land is limited. As the city grows, this will inevitably go up. Of course it can go down if the city is abandoned, much like parts of Baltimore have been and NYC was in the 70s and 80s. So I see NYC as becoming America's Paris--possibly Monte Carlo. This shift if anything is hugely responsible for drops in crime. The sad fact is that crime doesn't travel far. Move the poor people elsewhere and the crime goes with them. It's why the Bronx, which has had much crime and poverty, can still have rich enclaves like Riverdale just a few miles from a ghetto. There are huge advantages to urbanization. I don't see this trend diminishing. As people tend to move to cities, New York will grow. While it grows (or at least doesn't shrink), it will become increasingly gentrified. This says nothing about the state of poverty in the US. You cannot take the state of NY as a barometer for that, good or bad.

b_emery 16y ago

The decrease in crime in NYC over the lase few decades is just remarkable. I remember reading about the problems of AIDS and crack, and just thinking there was no hope. I would have never thought it could turn around like it did. Gladwell's "The Tipping Point" had some pretty good evidence that crime can be thought of as an epidemic. I'd love to read more on the subject if anyone has suggestions.

Tichy 16y ago
I think in Freakonomics a study is cited that claims what actually curbed the rise of crime was a change in abortion laws (rather than the "no broken windows" theory). Not sure if that was one of the things in Freakonomics that was later shown to be false, though.
- primodemus 16y ago
  yes it has been disputed. See: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HLjarwtM95Erz45QPP0pDWul8rc_20061127.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HL... and http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700 http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700
  - b_emery 16y ago
    Thanks for those. The dispute has an interesting source: "In other words, Messrs Donohue and Levitt did not run the test they thought they had—an “inadvertent but serious computer programming error”, according to Messrs Foote and Goetz"
drawkbox 16y ago
Here's the murder graph from 1920 to present. Amazingly bad spike from 65-95. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYC_murders.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYC_murders.PNG
joe_the_user 16y ago
I'd vaguely expect the rise in ATMs to be a factor. The ability to exist with a minimum of cash would tend to make casual theft much less appealing.

maxklein 16y ago

The U.S has come a long way since then. I wonder what happened to all those drug addicted people - where do they live now?

kloncks 16y ago
There are still significant parts of New York City where these sights are common. [edit] By "these sights", I am responding to the question on where "Drug Addicted People" go. "These sights" = "Drug Addicted People" not the specific content of these pictures.
- catshirt 16y ago
  care to elaborate? new york city is fascinating.
- chrisaycock 16y ago
  I live in New York and I've never seen anything as gruesome as this photos.
  - kloncks 16y ago
    Someone asked where these druggies moved after these photos were taken. I just said there are still areas in New York City that can have these characters. I was responding to that specific question. It's not like you can't find druggies on the streets anywhere in NYC. Just because a lot of the city has cleaned itself up doesn't mean there isn't anywhere that's still in ruins. An example: Some areas of The Bronx are still run-down, no?
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - sudonim 16y ago
    Agreed. I live in New York too. I go all over the city. I have not sought out the "Worst Neighborhood", but I have been to sketchy neighborhoods in all the boroughs and nothing looks like those pictures.

Jun8 16y ago

I read the book excerpt that is linked (http://www.american-pictures.com/english/book/book-9.htm http://www.american-pictures.com/english/book/book-9.htm) an it's fascinating!

Dn_Ab 16y ago

1965ish. This is where, when Hip Hop was born. Probably a lot of you turn your nose down* at this angry crime glorifying inferior 'form of noise'. But look at the conditions of these kids and what they had to work with, is it any surprise that they would be so pissed? Now look at today, not so many years after and against large odds; those kids have created an international culture with music, dance, stories, poetry - a veritable complex art form that touches the lives of hundreds of millions of people all over the world and gives, gave hope to those who had nothing else. This, at least is something that a community of hackers and entrepreneurs can appreciate. That is the true message of hip hop that has been lost by the bastardizing filteration process of media and people not so intimately connected to its origins - including descendants of the visionaries, who despoil the art and see it as only a means to get rich quick and stack up on some biches. Damned Entropy. It speaks something of both the human ability to persevere and the unique aspects of the U.S. where people in such adverse coordinates can still go on to create. such great things. I was a teeny bit hurt (not offended) by the Cr48 warning agains't exposure to rap. yes i am aware that rap, heck music is a subset of hip hop self.StepOfSoapBox()

potatolicious 16y ago
Hear hear. For those who haven't had a lot of exposure to rap, I highly encourage you to explore the early roots of rap and hip-hop; you will find that much of it is extremely socially conscious, in ways more authentic and more compelling than long, drawn-out exposes and journal reports. And then mainstream rap took a dive off a cliff into meaningless misogyny, bling, and euphemisms involving skeet shooting.
- noinput 16y ago
  Rap today is a mashup of old lyrics, over-engineered (and unnecessary) beats and a sad use of Autotune. I used to DJ for years and couldn't stand where the music was going, but the classics are considered classic for a reason, in my book at least. Listening to, and I mean really listening to the lyrics of true rappers that started and built the movement up is inspiring. Much of it is the obvious "Hoes & Cash", but there is almost always a reason they bring it up. It was either about what they strived to get to, or the rewards of their hustle and struggle to break out of the streets they grew up on. It truly is a unique form of expression that very few other music forms can touch.

Duff 16y ago

My family moved away from NYC in the late 80's because they couldn't afford to send us to the Catholic school, and the middle school that I was going to be sent to had some issues with violence. Violence like kids burning up cars with molotov cocktails.

ilamont 16y ago

I visited NYC on a regular basis from 1987 to 1990, to see friends in Brooklyn, NYU and northern NJ. It seems hard to imagine now, but I95 had abandoned, jacked cars on the shoulder, right in the middle of the city. At some grim housing estate visible from one of the train or aboveground subway lines, I remember seeing thick trail of garbage a hundred feet long covering a wide stairway going down an adjoining hillside to another street. Lots of people sleeping rough in Penn Station, and aggressive panhandling. Natives warned me not to take the subway past a certain time. Despite this environment -- or because of it -- there was also a lot of interesting cultural activity taking place in the city. Someone mentioned hip-hop originated there; it was also where American punk rock got off the ground, not to mention all kinds of art and theater activity. The food then, as is now, was excellent.

VladRussian 16y ago

very familiar pictures - that was depiction of life of working people in the US in the Soviet media when i was a child.

arihelgason 16y ago
Apparently the KGB tried to recruit the photographer, Jacob Holdt. He then tried to stop his book being used for propaganda. That probably didn't stop it from happening, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Holdt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Holdt

javanix 16y ago

Unfortunately, places like these still exist. Read 'The Corner' by David Simon (creator of The Wire and Treme) if you're interested in a more modern take on the ghetto. Take home message: the war on drugs in its current form is not working and the side effects are places like this, completely cut off from normal society, almost completely out of reach outside of an economic revival (like happened in Harlem).

flip 16y ago

http://gurlgoestoafrica.tumblr.com/ http://gurlgoestoafrica.tumblr.com/ The author needs to read this and get a life. Stop focusing on the downsides and actually do some work. It's as though people want to entirely forget the past and merely see the present. This post is, entirely, ignorant and racist.

flip 16y ago
Furthermore, shame on HN for taking on the liberal agenda and feeling pity. It's one thing to point out a problem. But to point out a problem without offering a solution? This is pathetic. For the first time, I am embarrassed to be part of this community. Way to be objective like the logical type we aspire to be guys! You've really let me down by even allowing this to reach the front page. This does not help me write code better... in any way. You have exploited HN by posting, and REALLY? upvoting this kind of bullshit.

mikecane 16y ago

I find it odd that this link has gained such traction. Months ago I posted a link to Holdt's original American Pictures site and it sunk like a stone. I'm sure this has happened to other people here too. No figuring out what will or won't pop.

rlmw 16y ago

For some reason when I clicked this link, I assumed it would be picture of brutialist architecture [0]. Interesting photos nonetheless. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture

godber 16y ago

Later in that thread there are links to other threads that include pictures of Harlem in recent times: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=404013 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=404013 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=405109 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=405109