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Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a ye

by mnm1 7y ago

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

jki275 7y ago
Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.
- mnm1 7y ago
  Maybe the percentage is low but it's still plenty high to be a deterrent and much, much higher than at any educational institution and most jobs. You bring up another excellent reason to avoid military service. I'm sure there are plenty more.
- standardUser 7y ago
  Extremely high probability compared to any other developed nation. The US fights foreign wars with alarming regularity, We are currently fighting several.
  - jki275 7y ago
    That’s because other developed nations barely have militaries. Of those who actually do and deploy and do the things we do the numbers are probably about the same - very low.
- btilly 7y ago
  I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.
  - jki275 7y ago
    I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > The odds are very low. The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.) There are ample actual studies of this, we don't need to rely on the “sample size” of competing anecdotal reports.
      - jki275 7y ago
        No, they’re not. I retired last year. I deployed to Afghanistan multiple times. I’m literally someone who experienced the life you’re trying to tell me about. Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda. It could be that that's true of of a variety of scientific studies from diverse sources with no reason to have common agenda, or it could be that that's just true of your unsubstantiated pseudonymous anecdotal ranting in an internet discussion board.
        jki275 7y ago
        Cite the studies and I'll be glad to explain to you why they don't say what you believe they do, or why their methodology is laughably incorrect. Again, btdt. I don't need a think tank to write a paper to tell me how the military works.
asdfqwer234 7y ago
joining the military != fighting in a combat role There's lots of regular work, maintenance, staffing some random base overseas etc
rayiner 7y ago
Mortality rates in the military are actually lower than in the civilian world: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 > Crude mortality rates are lower among U.S. military members than their civilian counterparts; service members must be healthy when they enter service and deaths from illnesses are relatively infrequent. Suicide rates for veterans is on the high end, but comparable to other highly physical professions. Adjusted for age and gender, the suicide rate among veterans is 50% higher than for the population as a whole: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate-young-us-veterans-jumps https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate.... That's on the high end, but not "high" in absolute terms: https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Suicide-Rates-Men-vs-Women-by-Profession-1024x889.png https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11.... (Scroll down to the chart showing suicide rates by profession for men versus women.) At 40-45 per 100,000, male veterans are about as likely to commit suicide as those in the arts and entertainment and installation/maintenance fields, and less likely than those in construction/resource extraction.
- learc83 7y ago
  It's not mortality you should worry about, but life altering injury. My stepdad, my next door neighbor, and 3 of my friends all have some kind of long term chronic injury caused by military service. In fact I only know 1 guy well who's ex military who doesn't have at least a moderately severe problem related to his service. Military service is either a noble sacrifice, or it's a good job. It can't be both simultaneously.
- DanBC 7y ago
  The worrying thing about those rates for veterans is that the spike is in younger people, which is not the normal pattern. There may be a "cohort" effect. See this tweet for an example of this happening in the UK: https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?s=20 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?... If this is happening it's potentially really worrying, because risk usually increases with age. So we'd see an increase in rates of death as this high risk group ages into a higher risk group.
matwood 7y ago
A very small percentage of people in the military ever see combat, and of those an even smaller percentage get hurt. Most jobs in the military are industrial type jobs, so all of those normal dangers do come along. Now, if someone really does want to see combat I'm sure they can maneuver in such a way to make it happen. The GI bill paying for college is a big benefit of service, but staying in as an officer can also be a great living.
jlg23 7y ago
I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout). OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to be a "burden" on your family for another few years... Not gambling health or life is only possible in a very privileged setting. Those not in it might actually be making a very wise choice.
- lapnitnelav 7y ago
  Wouldn't building a society where people don't have to make such critical choices out of desperation be the best way to tackle this problem?
  - jlg23 7y ago
    Yes, but until this is accomplished, military service is a viable options for a lot of people.

by mnm1 7y ago

jki275 7y ago

Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.

mnm1 7y ago
Maybe the percentage is low but it's still plenty high to be a deterrent and much, much higher than at any educational institution and most jobs. You bring up another excellent reason to avoid military service. I'm sure there are plenty more.
standardUser 7y ago
Extremely high probability compared to any other developed nation. The US fights foreign wars with alarming regularity, We are currently fighting several.
- jki275 7y ago
  That’s because other developed nations barely have militaries. Of those who actually do and deploy and do the things we do the numbers are probably about the same - very low.
btilly 7y ago
I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.
- jki275 7y ago
  I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > The odds are very low. The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.) There are ample actual studies of this, we don't need to rely on the “sample size” of competing anecdotal reports.
    - jki275 7y ago
      No, they’re not. I retired last year. I deployed to Afghanistan multiple times. I’m literally someone who experienced the life you’re trying to tell me about. Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda. It could be that that's true of of a variety of scientific studies from diverse sources with no reason to have common agenda, or it could be that that's just true of your unsubstantiated pseudonymous anecdotal ranting in an internet discussion board.
        jki275 7y ago
        Cite the studies and I'll be glad to explain to you why they don't say what you believe they do, or why their methodology is laughably incorrect. Again, btdt. I don't need a think tank to write a paper to tell me how the military works.

asdfqwer234 7y ago

joining the military != fighting in a combat role There's lots of regular work, maintenance, staffing some random base overseas etc

rayiner 7y ago

Mortality rates in the military are actually lower than in the civilian world: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 > Crude mortality rates are lower among U.S. military members than their civilian counterparts; service members must be healthy when they enter service and deaths from illnesses are relatively infrequent. Suicide rates for veterans is on the high end, but comparable to other highly physical professions. Adjusted for age and gender, the suicide rate among veterans is 50% higher than for the population as a whole: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate-young-us-veterans-jumps https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate.... That's on the high end, but not "high" in absolute terms: https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Suicide-Rates-Men-vs-Women-by-Profession-1024x889.png https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11.... (Scroll down to the chart showing suicide rates by profession for men versus women.) At 40-45 per 100,000, male veterans are about as likely to commit suicide as those in the arts and entertainment and installation/maintenance fields, and less likely than those in construction/resource extraction.

learc83 7y ago
It's not mortality you should worry about, but life altering injury. My stepdad, my next door neighbor, and 3 of my friends all have some kind of long term chronic injury caused by military service. In fact I only know 1 guy well who's ex military who doesn't have at least a moderately severe problem related to his service. Military service is either a noble sacrifice, or it's a good job. It can't be both simultaneously.
DanBC 7y ago
The worrying thing about those rates for veterans is that the spike is in younger people, which is not the normal pattern. There may be a "cohort" effect. See this tweet for an example of this happening in the UK: https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?s=20 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?... If this is happening it's potentially really worrying, because risk usually increases with age. So we'd see an increase in rates of death as this high risk group ages into a higher risk group.

matwood 7y ago

A very small percentage of people in the military ever see combat, and of those an even smaller percentage get hurt. Most jobs in the military are industrial type jobs, so all of those normal dangers do come along. Now, if someone really does want to see combat I'm sure they can maneuver in such a way to make it happen. The GI bill paying for college is a big benefit of service, but staying in as an officer can also be a great living.

jlg23 7y ago

I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout). OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to be a "burden" on your family for another few years... Not gambling health or life is only possible in a very privileged setting. Those not in it might actually be making a very wise choice.

lapnitnelav 7y ago
Wouldn't building a society where people don't have to make such critical choices out of desperation be the best way to tackle this problem?
- jlg23 7y ago
  Yes, but until this is accomplished, military service is a viable options for a lot of people.