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Military is also a good option to college, especially if your specialty is a skilled trade. My brother did this straight out of high school. Spent a few years o

Military is also a good option to college, especially if your specialty is a skilled trade. My brother did this straight out of high school. Spent a few years overseas and then eventually changed his specialty to biomedical equipment repair. When he left the service he made 60k/year and after 5 years he is at 125k/year. Also when you are in the service, you are getting paid and if you are overseas, all your bills are paid too. He never had any student loans ever or school expenses. When he was young he just saved most of his money....most of which has doubled or tripled in value due to how good the stock market has been.

mnm1 7y ago
Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.
- jki275 7y ago
  Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.
  - mnm1 7y ago
    Maybe the percentage is low but it's still plenty high to be a deterrent and much, much higher than at any educational institution and most jobs. You bring up another excellent reason to avoid military service. I'm sure there are plenty more.
  - standardUser 7y ago
    Extremely high probability compared to any other developed nation. The US fights foreign wars with alarming regularity, We are currently fighting several.
    - jki275 7y ago
      That’s because other developed nations barely have militaries. Of those who actually do and deploy and do the things we do the numbers are probably about the same - very low.
  - btilly 7y ago
    I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.
    - jki275 7y ago
      I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > The odds are very low. The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.) There are ample actual studies of this, we don't need to rely on the “sample size” of competing anecdotal reports.
        jki275 7y ago
        No, they’re not. I retired last year. I deployed to Afghanistan multiple times. I’m literally someone who experienced the life you’re trying to tell me about. Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda. It could be that that's true of of a variety of scientific studies from diverse sources with no reason to have common agenda, or it could be that that's just true of your unsubstantiated pseudonymous anecdotal ranting in an internet discussion board.
- asdfqwer234 7y ago
  joining the military != fighting in a combat role There's lots of regular work, maintenance, staffing some random base overseas etc
- rayiner 7y ago
  Mortality rates in the military are actually lower than in the civilian world: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 > Crude mortality rates are lower among U.S. military members than their civilian counterparts; service members must be healthy when they enter service and deaths from illnesses are relatively infrequent. Suicide rates for veterans is on the high end, but comparable to other highly physical professions. Adjusted for age and gender, the suicide rate among veterans is 50% higher than for the population as a whole: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate-young-us-veterans-jumps https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate.... That's on the high end, but not "high" in absolute terms: https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Suicide-Rates-Men-vs-Women-by-Profession-1024x889.png https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11.... (Scroll down to the chart showing suicide rates by profession for men versus women.) At 40-45 per 100,000, male veterans are about as likely to commit suicide as those in the arts and entertainment and installation/maintenance fields, and less likely than those in construction/resource extraction.
  - learc83 7y ago
    It's not mortality you should worry about, but life altering injury. My stepdad, my next door neighbor, and 3 of my friends all have some kind of long term chronic injury caused by military service. In fact I only know 1 guy well who's ex military who doesn't have at least a moderately severe problem related to his service. Military service is either a noble sacrifice, or it's a good job. It can't be both simultaneously.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    The worrying thing about those rates for veterans is that the spike is in younger people, which is not the normal pattern. There may be a "cohort" effect. See this tweet for an example of this happening in the UK: https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?s=20 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?... If this is happening it's potentially really worrying, because risk usually increases with age. So we'd see an increase in rates of death as this high risk group ages into a higher risk group.
- matwood 7y ago
  A very small percentage of people in the military ever see combat, and of those an even smaller percentage get hurt. Most jobs in the military are industrial type jobs, so all of those normal dangers do come along. Now, if someone really does want to see combat I'm sure they can maneuver in such a way to make it happen. The GI bill paying for college is a big benefit of service, but staying in as an officer can also be a great living.
- jlg23 7y ago
  I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout). OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to be a "burden" on your family for another few years... Not gambling health or life is only possible in a very privileged setting. Those not in it might actually be making a very wise choice.
  - lapnitnelav 7y ago
    Wouldn't building a society where people don't have to make such critical choices out of desperation be the best way to tackle this problem?
    - jlg23 7y ago
      Yes, but until this is accomplished, military service is a viable options for a lot of people.
AcerbicZero 7y ago
I can second this. Most branches let you select a job (MOS/whatever the other branches call it) that have real work uses, and you can also change your job if you'd like (with some caveats of course). I certainly didn't enjoy many moments of my military career, but I value the things I learned and the opportunities it opened up for me. Its certainly not for everyone, but with National Guard/Reserve options it's a pretty sweet deal that the vast majority of people could certainly handle.
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
The danger is the military can legally lie to you with promises of what you'll be doing when you enter, and in times of personnel shortfalls that might be true. But they can also make you cannon fodder or a deck swabber. And ask the reservists about military promises from Iraq. Oh you're in the National Guard? Yeah we're deploying you to a foreign country for years on end. And once you're in the military, you can be summoned for duty if they need you.

mnm1 7y ago

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

jki275 7y ago
Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.
- mnm1 7y ago
  Maybe the percentage is low but it's still plenty high to be a deterrent and much, much higher than at any educational institution and most jobs. You bring up another excellent reason to avoid military service. I'm sure there are plenty more.
- standardUser 7y ago
  Extremely high probability compared to any other developed nation. The US fights foreign wars with alarming regularity, We are currently fighting several.
  - jki275 7y ago
    That’s because other developed nations barely have militaries. Of those who actually do and deploy and do the things we do the numbers are probably about the same - very low.
- btilly 7y ago
  I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.
  - jki275 7y ago
    I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > The odds are very low. The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.) There are ample actual studies of this, we don't need to rely on the “sample size” of competing anecdotal reports.
      - jki275 7y ago
        No, they’re not. I retired last year. I deployed to Afghanistan multiple times. I’m literally someone who experienced the life you’re trying to tell me about. Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda. It could be that that's true of of a variety of scientific studies from diverse sources with no reason to have common agenda, or it could be that that's just true of your unsubstantiated pseudonymous anecdotal ranting in an internet discussion board.
asdfqwer234 7y ago
joining the military != fighting in a combat role There's lots of regular work, maintenance, staffing some random base overseas etc
rayiner 7y ago
Mortality rates in the military are actually lower than in the civilian world: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22694586 > Crude mortality rates are lower among U.S. military members than their civilian counterparts; service members must be healthy when they enter service and deaths from illnesses are relatively infrequent. Suicide rates for veterans is on the high end, but comparable to other highly physical professions. Adjusted for age and gender, the suicide rate among veterans is 50% higher than for the population as a whole: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate-young-us-veterans-jumps https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/26/suicide-rate.... That's on the high end, but not "high" in absolute terms: https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Suicide-Rates-Men-vs-Women-by-Profession-1024x889.png https://www.registerednursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11.... (Scroll down to the chart showing suicide rates by profession for men versus women.) At 40-45 per 100,000, male veterans are about as likely to commit suicide as those in the arts and entertainment and installation/maintenance fields, and less likely than those in construction/resource extraction.
- learc83 7y ago
  It's not mortality you should worry about, but life altering injury. My stepdad, my next door neighbor, and 3 of my friends all have some kind of long term chronic injury caused by military service. In fact I only know 1 guy well who's ex military who doesn't have at least a moderately severe problem related to his service. Military service is either a noble sacrifice, or it's a good job. It can't be both simultaneously.
- DanBC 7y ago
  The worrying thing about those rates for veterans is that the spike is in younger people, which is not the normal pattern. There may be a "cohort" effect. See this tweet for an example of this happening in the UK: https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?s=20 https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1161940914308300801?... If this is happening it's potentially really worrying, because risk usually increases with age. So we'd see an increase in rates of death as this high risk group ages into a higher risk group.
matwood 7y ago
A very small percentage of people in the military ever see combat, and of those an even smaller percentage get hurt. Most jobs in the military are industrial type jobs, so all of those normal dangers do come along. Now, if someone really does want to see combat I'm sure they can maneuver in such a way to make it happen. The GI bill paying for college is a big benefit of service, but staying in as an officer can also be a great living.
jlg23 7y ago
I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout). OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to be a "burden" on your family for another few years... Not gambling health or life is only possible in a very privileged setting. Those not in it might actually be making a very wise choice.
- lapnitnelav 7y ago
  Wouldn't building a society where people don't have to make such critical choices out of desperation be the best way to tackle this problem?
  - jlg23 7y ago
    Yes, but until this is accomplished, military service is a viable options for a lot of people.

AcerbicZero 7y ago

I can second this. Most branches let you select a job (MOS/whatever the other branches call it) that have real work uses, and you can also change your job if you'd like (with some caveats of course). I certainly didn't enjoy many moments of my military career, but I value the things I learned and the opportunities it opened up for me. Its certainly not for everyone, but with National Guard/Reserve options it's a pretty sweet deal that the vast majority of people could certainly handle.

AtlasBarfed 7y ago

The danger is the military can legally lie to you with promises of what you'll be doing when you enter, and in times of personnel shortfalls that might be true. But they can also make you cannon fodder or a deck swabber. And ask the reservists about military promises from Iraq. Oh you're in the National Guard? Yeah we're deploying you to a foreign country for years on end. And once you're in the military, you can be summoned for duty if they need you.