4 ms·

You are not going to make a wage above the poverty line doing those jobs though. Together the manufacturing sector and unions managed to drive wages and benefi

You are not going to make a wage above the poverty line doing those jobs though. Together the manufacturing sector and unions managed to drive wages and benefits into a local maximum, and were unable to find a way out. Also i further disagree with the notion that it'll let you live better than in the 60s, for a variety of reasons including poorer access to nutrition, lack of public transport, and that society has shifted away from outdoor activities.

tomjen3 16y ago
Whats the poverty line though? Because as a student I live below the one for my country but I live better than my parents did a generation ago and vastly better than my grandparents. As for your second argument you might be slightly right about nutrition (but only on average, its easy enough to live healthy for cheap as several members of this board have done) but the two other things? How does outdoor activities even fit into that?
- doki_pen 16y ago
  The problem is, losing the middle class cascades to so many other problems. Most importantly, it shrinks the market and reduces business opportunity. It also has a devastating effect on tax revenue and public services. What made the US the powerhouse that it is is an enormous middle class. We seem to be losing that now.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Could you explain your thesis in more detail? You seem to agree with tomjen's claim that everyone, poor or middle class, seems to be consuming more now than historically. And this is certainly well supported by the data - modern day poor people consume more than 1960's middle class people. So isn't the purchasing behavior, rather than the label attached to the consumer, what grows the market and increases business opportunity? I.e., isn't it better for a modern day poor person to consume a house, a car, an AC and an X-Box than for a 1970's middle class person to walk to work, live in a smaller house, and suffer in the summer with no AC and entertain themselves with only a legacy mechanical music players? [edit: better for the purpose of creating "business opportunity"]
    - chopsueyar 16y ago
      Better for who?
- knowtheory 16y ago
  The poverty line is actually a defined number. Students do appear as a statistical aberration in most of these counts since they have no income, but they tend to have access to credit and fewer costs than those that are older than them (health care) or those with families. So yes, you're right, but i don't think it matters all that much. Studenthood is a transient state which is designed to eject students after a period of time (and you have to fight really hard to stay a student). Poverty and destitution are the opposite.
matwood 16y ago
poorer access to nutrition Based on studies [1], the above is simply not true. Wal-Mart has for example given more people access to healthy foods at lower prices than at any other time in history. Fresh vegetables and fruits can compete on price with less healthy alternatives at WM. Now, this doesn't mean people will chose them over a bag of chips (they study claims there is statistical significant evidence that people do though), but it has removed price as a fairly large barrier. [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-16/does-walmart-make-you-skinny/ http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-16/do...
- knowtheory 16y ago
  Actually that piece really doesn't modulate what i've said. I'd be interested in seeing the distribution of walmarts relative to the levels of poverty across the US. That article even starts with the caveat that there are urban areas which still have a dearth of access to fresh foods. This is an empirical question, we should probably find actual data to back it up.
  - matwood 16y ago
    That's a good point that WMs aren't everywhere, but maybe they should be?
    - chopsueyar 16y ago
      You could always do something like Detroit, instead... http://www.detroitagriculture.org/GRP_Website/Home.html http://www.detroitagriculture.org/GRP_Website/Home.html

tomjen3 16y ago

Whats the poverty line though? Because as a student I live below the one for my country but I live better than my parents did a generation ago and vastly better than my grandparents. As for your second argument you might be slightly right about nutrition (but only on average, its easy enough to live healthy for cheap as several members of this board have done) but the two other things? How does outdoor activities even fit into that?

doki_pen 16y ago
The problem is, losing the middle class cascades to so many other problems. Most importantly, it shrinks the market and reduces business opportunity. It also has a devastating effect on tax revenue and public services. What made the US the powerhouse that it is is an enormous middle class. We seem to be losing that now.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Could you explain your thesis in more detail? You seem to agree with tomjen's claim that everyone, poor or middle class, seems to be consuming more now than historically. And this is certainly well supported by the data - modern day poor people consume more than 1960's middle class people. So isn't the purchasing behavior, rather than the label attached to the consumer, what grows the market and increases business opportunity? I.e., isn't it better for a modern day poor person to consume a house, a car, an AC and an X-Box than for a 1970's middle class person to walk to work, live in a smaller house, and suffer in the summer with no AC and entertain themselves with only a legacy mechanical music players? [edit: better for the purpose of creating "business opportunity"]
  - chopsueyar 16y ago
    Better for who?
knowtheory 16y ago
The poverty line is actually a defined number. Students do appear as a statistical aberration in most of these counts since they have no income, but they tend to have access to credit and fewer costs than those that are older than them (health care) or those with families. So yes, you're right, but i don't think it matters all that much. Studenthood is a transient state which is designed to eject students after a period of time (and you have to fight really hard to stay a student). Poverty and destitution are the opposite.

matwood 16y ago

poorer access to nutrition Based on studies [1], the above is simply not true. Wal-Mart has for example given more people access to healthy foods at lower prices than at any other time in history. Fresh vegetables and fruits can compete on price with less healthy alternatives at WM. Now, this doesn't mean people will chose them over a bag of chips (they study claims there is statistical significant evidence that people do though), but it has removed price as a fairly large barrier. [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-16/does-walmart-make-you-skinny/ http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-16/do...

knowtheory 16y ago
Actually that piece really doesn't modulate what i've said. I'd be interested in seeing the distribution of walmarts relative to the levels of poverty across the US. That article even starts with the caveat that there are urban areas which still have a dearth of access to fresh foods. This is an empirical question, we should probably find actual data to back it up.
- matwood 16y ago
  That's a good point that WMs aren't everywhere, but maybe they should be?
  - chopsueyar 16y ago
    You could always do something like Detroit, instead... http://www.detroitagriculture.org/GRP_Website/Home.html http://www.detroitagriculture.org/GRP_Website/Home.html