4 ms·

I'm not convinced there are any intentional moderates. Isn't this just one big straw man? Noticeable lack of specifics, not even historical figures. Honestly

by arh68 7y ago

I'm not convinced there are any intentional moderates. Isn't this just one big straw man? Noticeable lack of specifics, not even historical figures. Honestly it comes off like "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why". I think there's definitely something to the idea, but I wouldn't carve up the world into These People and Those People. If anything, we're more like calico cats and we all exhibit both behaviors simultaneously. Yes, I think the Overton windows "centers" some of our views, but I can't consciously tell you which ones without thinking about it first.

coldtea 7y ago
>I'm not convinced there are any intentional moderates. Well, I know tons of those. People in journalism, and other high profile public related posts, are often such. They don't want to offend any side, and reap the benefits of both. Some politicians are also like that. I know people in media personally who have more extreme positions in private talks, but their public opinions are carefully calculated to advance their career. >Noticeable lack of specifics, not even historical figures. Honestly it comes off like "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" Why do people on HN think everything is a big science paper? The post is observations about society, from someone who has lived in one for 5+ decades and paid some attention. It's not some sociology paper or nation-wide poll results. It's like people can't think without polls and figures, or have relegated their opinions to the "experts" and their stats...
- bovermyer 7y ago
  While "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" is a bit too dismissive, your dismissal of a desire for factual data is disturbing. One person's experience, no matter how broad for an individual, is still just one individual's anecdotal experience. This is true even if they have a sharp mind, decades of experience, and the best credentials. The principles of fact checking and bias analysis should not be relegated solely to academia.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >While "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" is a bit too dismissive, your dismissal of a desire for factual data is disturbing. I find the over-reliance on second hand ("factual") data, charts and figures, disturbing. People have to learn to observe, think, and understand themselves. Not just passively consume pre-made charts and statistics (which are the easiest thing to manipulate). And learning how to spot BS statistical claims wont help when the raw data can be themselves cherry-picked, manipulated, and diced in tons of ways. Not to mention that live experience is 360 (if one tries), where data will always paint less than the whole picture. One could arrange for great "official" charts and figures for every country -- and most countries do. Unless one gets on the field and talk to the people on the street and the workplace, and try to check the reality in various situations, they can have a totally BS picture painted for them by the statistics and "factual data". >One person's experience, no matter how broad for an individual, is still just one individual's anecdotal experience. Well, you're not 10000 people. You're just one, like everyone else is. In the end, whatever you're fed or read or watch, you have to make up your mind for yourself. >The principles of fact checking and bias analysis should not be relegated solely to academia. Nor should fact checking and bias analysis start and begin with data people are handed down from official or other sources. Those can range from perfectly accurate to badly compiled to totally and mischievously misleading (for saving face, incompetence, for profit, etc). If you lived in USSR, would you trust the official data, or you would try to balance things and do direct observation? You shouldn't blindly trust "facts" and "figures" anywhere else either...
    - bovermyer 7y ago
      You keep saying charts and figures. Repeatedly, ad nauseum. As if that's what I was getting at. Quit talking about them, that's not relevant to this discussion. Comparing two data points will always yield better results than having just one. Data points don't have to be literal points on a graph. They can be discussions with people. Study historiography or journalism.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        You know, it's possible that Paul Graham might have had discussions with people, rather than just his own one-life anecdotal data...
- morelisp 7y ago
  > someone who has lived in one for 5+ decades Graham's sale of Viaweb essentially exits him from the society most of us live in; he achieves a level of wealth that lets him ignore most aspects or truths he finds inconvenient (good or bad, small or large). As he's now writing in absentia for over 20 years, I don't think we should assume he knows anything about how the world works for most people today. > and paid some attention Extremely questionable based on his other essays.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Graham's sale of Viaweb essentially exits him from the society most of us live in Sure. On the other hand, it gives him access to a part of society most of us don't live in.
ralfd 7y ago
Well, it is christmas, so I am at home with family and relatives with many different opinions and life experiences and to navigate that jungle I have to confess, yes, the last few days I was an intentional moderate. Also at work.

by arh68 7y ago

coldtea 7y ago

>I'm not convinced there are any intentional moderates. Well, I know tons of those. People in journalism, and other high profile public related posts, are often such. They don't want to offend any side, and reap the benefits of both. Some politicians are also like that. I know people in media personally who have more extreme positions in private talks, but their public opinions are carefully calculated to advance their career. >Noticeable lack of specifics, not even historical figures. Honestly it comes off like "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" Why do people on HN think everything is a big science paper? The post is observations about society, from someone who has lived in one for 5+ decades and paid some attention. It's not some sociology paper or nation-wide poll results. It's like people can't think without polls and figures, or have relegated their opinions to the "experts" and their stats...

bovermyer 7y ago
While "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" is a bit too dismissive, your dismissal of a desire for factual data is disturbing. One person's experience, no matter how broad for an individual, is still just one individual's anecdotal experience. This is true even if they have a sharp mind, decades of experience, and the best credentials. The principles of fact checking and bias analysis should not be relegated solely to academia.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >While "I met a guy, didn't like him, I think this is why" is a bit too dismissive, your dismissal of a desire for factual data is disturbing. I find the over-reliance on second hand ("factual") data, charts and figures, disturbing. People have to learn to observe, think, and understand themselves. Not just passively consume pre-made charts and statistics (which are the easiest thing to manipulate). And learning how to spot BS statistical claims wont help when the raw data can be themselves cherry-picked, manipulated, and diced in tons of ways. Not to mention that live experience is 360 (if one tries), where data will always paint less than the whole picture. One could arrange for great "official" charts and figures for every country -- and most countries do. Unless one gets on the field and talk to the people on the street and the workplace, and try to check the reality in various situations, they can have a totally BS picture painted for them by the statistics and "factual data". >One person's experience, no matter how broad for an individual, is still just one individual's anecdotal experience. Well, you're not 10000 people. You're just one, like everyone else is. In the end, whatever you're fed or read or watch, you have to make up your mind for yourself. >The principles of fact checking and bias analysis should not be relegated solely to academia. Nor should fact checking and bias analysis start and begin with data people are handed down from official or other sources. Those can range from perfectly accurate to badly compiled to totally and mischievously misleading (for saving face, incompetence, for profit, etc). If you lived in USSR, would you trust the official data, or you would try to balance things and do direct observation? You shouldn't blindly trust "facts" and "figures" anywhere else either...
  - bovermyer 7y ago
    You keep saying charts and figures. Repeatedly, ad nauseum. As if that's what I was getting at. Quit talking about them, that's not relevant to this discussion. Comparing two data points will always yield better results than having just one. Data points don't have to be literal points on a graph. They can be discussions with people. Study historiography or journalism.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      You know, it's possible that Paul Graham might have had discussions with people, rather than just his own one-life anecdotal data...
morelisp 7y ago
> someone who has lived in one for 5+ decades Graham's sale of Viaweb essentially exits him from the society most of us live in; he achieves a level of wealth that lets him ignore most aspects or truths he finds inconvenient (good or bad, small or large). As he's now writing in absentia for over 20 years, I don't think we should assume he knows anything about how the world works for most people today. > and paid some attention Extremely questionable based on his other essays.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Graham's sale of Viaweb essentially exits him from the society most of us live in Sure. On the other hand, it gives him access to a part of society most of us don't live in.

ralfd 7y ago

Well, it is christmas, so I am at home with family and relatives with many different opinions and life experiences and to navigate that jungle I have to confess, yes, the last few days I was an intentional moderate. Also at work.