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For a Christian, the same situation could simply be trusting in Divine Providence and not in ourselves or others for security (which so often fails us anyway).

For a Christian, the same situation could simply be trusting in Divine Providence and not in ourselves or others for security (which so often fails us anyway). In that case, it would be a virtue.

striking 7y ago
No, I'm pretty sure that in this case you're just trusting in others for security and trusting that they won't overwork you. Unless you're doing work for the Church, I'd say it might be unwise to conflate your client with God.
- toyg 7y ago
  I’d say even if you are working for the Church. Account for it as pro-bono by all means, but it’s still work commissioned by human beings, no matter how divinely-inspired they might be.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Huh? Could you explain with more detail what you mean?
- gwd 7y ago
  FWIW I'm a Christian and I can't make out what he's getting at either.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  The more you trust in God, the more he will make it clear that your victory is caused by him, and remove all possibility for the explanation that it's just a coincidence, or that you're doing it on your own. When Gideon went up with 30,000 soliders against the Midianite army who had 65,000, God didn't want any of them thinking they would win because of their own skill or strength. So he had Gideon tell the cowards to leave, and there were only 10,000 left. Then God had Gideon tell them to drink at the river, and the ones who rested leisurely next to the river and drank sufficiently, he told them to leave. The rest who ran around and drank hurriedly, ready for battle, God said to Gideon, "that's your army." Only 300 men. There's no human way they could win, but of course they did win. Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that anyone could fulfill them all. But of course, he did fulfill them all. Our God is the God of Unlikeliness. Samson didn't always need extra strength. But at exactly the time he needed it, it was said that he was filled with the spirit, which meant he didn't have strength, but at the exact moment he needed it, God gave it to him, and for no longer than that. God does not do anything uselessly. God does not give extra. He gives just enough, to prove that our victory comes from him, and not us. If one has total trust in God's Divine Providence, he may find himself in a situation where there's no earthly way his needs will be provided for, and then suddenly, at the last second, God will provide. Many of the Saints had exactly this happen to them. St. John Bosco, about 150 years ago, needed a certain sum of money by a certain day, or everything would be closed down, and had no way of obtaining it. The very day he needed it, a man came in as the Saint was praying, and offered exactly that amount of money as an alms, not knowing about the situation. About 80 years ago, Venerable Fulton Sheen went on a trip to visit Lourdes in honor of Our Blessed Lady, not having enough money for the hotel or to get back. But he asked her to take care of it. And he chose the best hotel, figuring if she could obtain a miracle, she could obtain a small one just as well as a big one. So he went and stayed for 9 days, just as long as a Novena, and on the last day, at night, when he was beginning to wonder how she would take care of him, as Fulton Sheen was praying in the garden, a man came up and asked him to accompany his family who were touring. He also said, "have you paid your bill?" And time would fail me to mention similar stories that happened to St. Francis of Assisi, St. Benedict, St. Francis de Sales, St. Theresa of Calcutta, and many others... Our God is the God of Last Minute Victory, lest anyone think it was his own devising or cunning or planning or scheming that gave themselves the victory. If a person had trust like these great Saints, they might find themselves in a situation where they're living paycheck to paycheck, with no savings, no retirement fun, no backup plan, only barely enough money for their essential needs of life, and no guarantee of how long the work will last, and yet this lasts for years. Because God works all things for the good of those who love Him, and God works with those who love Him for the good of all things.
  - ptcampbell 7y ago
    Crikey. If you say so.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Got you, thanks. >there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that anyone could fulfill them all // That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from, or is it just a hyperbolic way of saying "infinitesimal"? Back to your original: >In that case, it would be a virtue. I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?) but once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to dispense with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension, or save for the future.
    - sdegutis 7y ago
      > That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from I think it might have been from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5... but either way, it comes from the number of prophesies and then some statistical math. > I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?) but once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to dispense with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension, or save for the future. God wants people to give back to him according to their faith. "The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work." (2 Corinthians 9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9&version=RSVCE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9...) To those who want to go beyond regular virtue, Jesus says: "If you would be perfect, go and sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come, follow me." (Luke 18:18-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22&version=RSVCE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22...) It all depends on a person's faith. The more trust they have in God, the more God is pleased, and God refuses to let anyone down who trusts in him, so he provides everything they need in life. People like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Benedict gave up all material possessions and trusted solely in God's Divine Providence, and God not only provided for their daily needs, but also testified to their love for him by granting many miracles to them (which were never selfishly asked, but always for the sake of helping neighbor). Here's a story about God's Divine Providence to St. Benedict: https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5089/page/n73 https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5... Similarly, St. Anthony of Egypt (one of my favorite saints ever), who gave away everything taking Jesus's words literally, it's an amazing story and relatively short: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm For me, God would not be pleased for me to abandon my way of life and sell all that I have and give to the poor, because I'm the sole provider for a wife and 6 children. But these were single men who were not responsible for anyone, so they made themselves responsible for everyone, praying and doing penance for the sake of all those who won't pray and do penance for themselves. They sold all their worldly goods and purchased spiritual goods, they bought the spiritual field for the sake of the spiritual pearl buried in the midst of it.

For a Christian, the same situation could simply be trusting in Divine Providence and not in ourselves or others for security (which so often fails us anyway). In that case, it would be a virtue.

striking 7y ago

No, I'm pretty sure that in this case you're just trusting in others for security and trusting that they won't overwork you. Unless you're doing work for the Church, I'd say it might be unwise to conflate your client with God.

toyg 7y ago
I’d say even if you are working for the Church. Account for it as pro-bono by all means, but it’s still work commissioned by human beings, no matter how divinely-inspired they might be.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

Huh? Could you explain with more detail what you mean?

gwd 7y ago
FWIW I'm a Christian and I can't make out what he's getting at either.
sdegutis 7y ago
The more you trust in God, the more he will make it clear that your victory is caused by him, and remove all possibility for the explanation that it's just a coincidence, or that you're doing it on your own. When Gideon went up with 30,000 soliders against the Midianite army who had 65,000, God didn't want any of them thinking they would win because of their own skill or strength. So he had Gideon tell the cowards to leave, and there were only 10,000 left. Then God had Gideon tell them to drink at the river, and the ones who rested leisurely next to the river and drank sufficiently, he told them to leave. The rest who ran around and drank hurriedly, ready for battle, God said to Gideon, "that's your army." Only 300 men. There's no human way they could win, but of course they did win. Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that anyone could fulfill them all. But of course, he did fulfill them all. Our God is the God of Unlikeliness. Samson didn't always need extra strength. But at exactly the time he needed it, it was said that he was filled with the spirit, which meant he didn't have strength, but at the exact moment he needed it, God gave it to him, and for no longer than that. God does not do anything uselessly. God does not give extra. He gives just enough, to prove that our victory comes from him, and not us. If one has total trust in God's Divine Providence, he may find himself in a situation where there's no earthly way his needs will be provided for, and then suddenly, at the last second, God will provide. Many of the Saints had exactly this happen to them. St. John Bosco, about 150 years ago, needed a certain sum of money by a certain day, or everything would be closed down, and had no way of obtaining it. The very day he needed it, a man came in as the Saint was praying, and offered exactly that amount of money as an alms, not knowing about the situation. About 80 years ago, Venerable Fulton Sheen went on a trip to visit Lourdes in honor of Our Blessed Lady, not having enough money for the hotel or to get back. But he asked her to take care of it. And he chose the best hotel, figuring if she could obtain a miracle, she could obtain a small one just as well as a big one. So he went and stayed for 9 days, just as long as a Novena, and on the last day, at night, when he was beginning to wonder how she would take care of him, as Fulton Sheen was praying in the garden, a man came up and asked him to accompany his family who were touring. He also said, "have you paid your bill?" And time would fail me to mention similar stories that happened to St. Francis of Assisi, St. Benedict, St. Francis de Sales, St. Theresa of Calcutta, and many others... Our God is the God of Last Minute Victory, lest anyone think it was his own devising or cunning or planning or scheming that gave themselves the victory. If a person had trust like these great Saints, they might find themselves in a situation where they're living paycheck to paycheck, with no savings, no retirement fun, no backup plan, only barely enough money for their essential needs of life, and no guarantee of how long the work will last, and yet this lasts for years. Because God works all things for the good of those who love Him, and God works with those who love Him for the good of all things.
- ptcampbell 7y ago
  Crikey. If you say so.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Got you, thanks. >there was a 82 x 10^120 chance that anyone could fulfill them all // That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from, or is it just a hyperbolic way of saying "infinitesimal"? Back to your original: >In that case, it would be a virtue. I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?) but once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to dispense with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension, or save for the future.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    > That's a very specific figure, I'm curious where it comes from I think it might have been from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQObnw9A6A8&list=PLHr17i6CU5... but either way, it comes from the number of prophesies and then some statistical math. > I think that it can be virtuous to trust when one is in the direst situation to the providence of God (or maybe the providence of those God inspires?) but once one has their daily needs I don't think God intends for us to dispense with basic economies and - for example - not pay in to a pension, or save for the future. God wants people to give back to him according to their faith. "The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work." (2 Corinthians 9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9&version=RSVCE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9...) To those who want to go beyond regular virtue, Jesus says: "If you would be perfect, go and sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come, follow me." (Luke 18:18-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22&version=RSVCE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-22...) It all depends on a person's faith. The more trust they have in God, the more God is pleased, and God refuses to let anyone down who trusts in him, so he provides everything they need in life. People like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Benedict gave up all material possessions and trusted solely in God's Divine Providence, and God not only provided for their daily needs, but also testified to their love for him by granting many miracles to them (which were never selfishly asked, but always for the sake of helping neighbor). Here's a story about God's Divine Providence to St. Benedict: https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5089/page/n73 https://archive.org/details/DialoguesGregoryTheGreatPopeSt.5... Similarly, St. Anthony of Egypt (one of my favorite saints ever), who gave away everything taking Jesus's words literally, it's an amazing story and relatively short: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm For me, God would not be pleased for me to abandon my way of life and sell all that I have and give to the poor, because I'm the sole provider for a wife and 6 children. But these were single men who were not responsible for anyone, so they made themselves responsible for everyone, praying and doing penance for the sake of all those who won't pray and do penance for themselves. They sold all their worldly goods and purchased spiritual goods, they bought the spiritual field for the sake of the spiritual pearl buried in the midst of it.