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To be honest, I didn't know there was a difference. I was more looking for a substitute for shortening, which I think clarified butter can do? Or just ghee?

by kop316 7y ago

dragontamer 7y ago
All fats can substitute for each other depending on recipe. It will taste different but it's really fun to replace fats with other fats. Ex, bacon grease works in more recipes than you'd expect. Just memorize their smoke points, the point where a fat begins to burn. Shortening has a very high smoke point, but that is only relevant if you expect the temperature to go above 400F, such as the mallard reaction (aka the taste of fried / saute food). You'll learn pretty quick when a fat burns quickly. Olive oil and bacon grease burn at really low temperatures and will create a thick cloud of smoke as it burns. Look up the smoke points of fats if you are worried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Smoke_point_of_cooking_oils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Smoke_point_of_cookin...
- ericd 7y ago
  Really interesting, thanks for the brain dump! What do you look for to know when your pan is preheated enough to eg sear meat well if you don't wait for a little smoke?
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    I do actually wait for a little smoke. It's a very consistent measurement of pan temperature. If I choose a 450F smoke point fat, like canola oil, I know that the pan is 450F when it starts to smoke. I got the reaction wrong earlier, mallard is 300F or so. Caramelization is 400F
    - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
      Close- wikipedia says 280°F to 330°F - see my comment above. But in that case, like I say in my longer comment, it doesn't make sense for olive oil to catch fire "easily", like you say in your previous comment. What olive oil are you using, if I'm not being too nosey? Sorry if I sound defensive- I'm just really surprised. olive oil is very common where I come from :)
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        Well, certainly not "catch on fire". Just emitting enough smoke to maybe set off a smoke alarm (but otherwise not really harmful in my experience). Light smoking is fine (and is good for gauging temperature), but heavy smoke will have a burnt taste and is an indicator that you were "cooking too hot". I don't cook with olive oil too often, so I can't say I remember the brand. I looked a few things up, and it seems like different olive-oils have different smoke points. https://www.jonbarron.org/diet-and-nutrition/healthiest-cooking-oil-chart-smoke-points https://www.jonbarron.org/diet-and-nutrition/healthiest-cook... According to this, some olive oil has a smoke point of 320F / 160C, but other olive-oils can have a smoke point as high as 468F. I don't know why olive oil has such a different range. I guess I'll experiment with olive oil more. It is quite possible that olive oil here in the USA is of lower-quality perhaps?
        YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
        You're right, the wikipedia article about smoke points says that it's the temperature at which oil begins to emit a bluish smoke, not flame. Well, I'm confused about that because I've never seen oil smoking, either. So I couldn't understand what it means for olive oil to "burn", even. Except if you deliberately set it on fire of course. Olive oil quality can depend on many things: where it comes from, how it is made, who makes it, etc. The one that's considered best is olive oil produced only from olives (i.e. no kernels) and only by mechanical means (specifically: no heat and no chemical treatments; so it's called "cold-extracted"). That's the quality that's sold as "extra virgin olive oil" though from what I understand there is no strict standard for what that means exactly. Then there's provenance. Generally, Spanish olive oil is considered best with Greek second (unless you ask a Greek of course) and Italian a distant third. Other countries in the Med also make it, e.g. Morocco etc. Italian olive oil has often been found to be adulterated, substituted for lower quality olive oils or just to be a mix of non-Italian olive oils (primarily Greek, apparently) so it's a case of not knowing what you eat. Anyway, I live in the UK where olive oil is imported and the good stuff tends to be expensive (£30ish for 25lt of Greek extra virgin but of course most people will buy smaller bottles that are more expensive). So my guess is that most olive oil consumed outside the Med tends to be of inferior quality, just because people don't know it well enough to justify spending the price. So if you experiment with it- get the good stuff. To be honest, I just get the stuff I always do and I have never had to think about quality or smoke points, so my advice is probably a little vague. Er. You won't set your house on fire just because some crazy Greek person on the internets said it's safe to cook with olive oil, eh? :)
    - ericd 7y ago
      Ah ok good to know, I’ll keep looking for a little smoke. Thought that might mean the taste was getting a little warped. Also might look into making some clarified butter. Great thread.
- kop316 7y ago
  I have a lot of bacon grease, but I have only used it in cornbread. I'll have to see where I can substitute it (per my earlier comment, bacon fat flour tortillas now sound very good).
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  >> You'll learn pretty quick when a fat burns quickly. Olive oil and bacon grease burn at really low temperatures and will create a thick cloud of smoke as it burns. I was wondering about that because it's mentioned in the article also: I don't understand why people say that olive oil burns easily. Look at the table you posted: the smoking point of two qualities of olive oil ("virgin" and "extra virgin, low acidity, high quality") is above 400°F (204°C) at 410°F and 405°F respectively. This is close to the 400°F you cite as the temperature necessary for the Maillard reaction, but the wikipedia article on the Maillard reaction states that: "The reaction is a form of non-enzymatic browning which typically proceeds rapidly from around 140 to 165 °C (280 to 330 °F)." In which case, even "extra virgin" olive oil, the olive oil quality listed as having the lowest smoking point of 160°C, can withstand the heat necessary for food to undergo the Maillard reaction. It makes even less sense that the Maillard reaction needs 400°F to get going. If you look at the wikipedia article for "Smoking point", where the table you link to comes from, it lists the average temperatures of frying and baking: Pan frying (sauté) on stove top heat: 120 °C (248 °F) Deep frying: 160 - 180 °C (320 °F - 356 °F) Oven baking: Average of 180 °C (356 °F) It wouldn't make sense for the Maillard reaction to need more than the average _baking_ temperature to occur! Finally, I'm the third generation of women in my family to cook with olive oil, to always cook with olive oil and to cook everything with olive oil. I fry, deep fry, boil, stir-fry, bake, sear, and so on everything with olive oil. I have never seen olive oil burning (emitting a blue flame and smoke) and I've never heard of anyone in my family, or in my broad circle of friends and acquaintances who has seen that. I have never heard it in the news either and if it was something that happens to olive oil when the food you're cooking with it is about to get tasty- it should be happening all the time [Edit: note that I've burned plenty of food in olive oil- but still not the olive oil]. Small point to note: I'm Greek and we do have good quality olive oil (and wine; and feta; and yoghurt; and nothing else). So my conclusion is: it's only cheap, low quality and most likely adulterated olive oil that catches fire in low temperatures. (See the wikipedia article on olive oil about adulteration. It's a big thing in some other oil-producing countries, and I don't mean Saudi Arabia).
  - hansthehorse 7y ago
    Avocado oil has a 520 degree smoke point and a neutral taste. I have completely switched to it (I buy it at Costco) and use olive oil only for salads or tomato/mozzarela combinations and things like that.

To be honest, I didn't know there was a difference. I was more looking for a substitute for shortening, which I think clarified butter can do? Or just ghee?

by kop316 7y ago

To be honest, I didn't know there was a difference. I was more looking for a substitute for shortening, which I think clarified butter can do? Or just ghee?

dragontamer 7y ago

All fats can substitute for each other depending on recipe. It will taste different but it's really fun to replace fats with other fats. Ex, bacon grease works in more recipes than you'd expect. Just memorize their smoke points, the point where a fat begins to burn. Shortening has a very high smoke point, but that is only relevant if you expect the temperature to go above 400F, such as the mallard reaction (aka the taste of fried / saute food). You'll learn pretty quick when a fat burns quickly. Olive oil and bacon grease burn at really low temperatures and will create a thick cloud of smoke as it burns. Look up the smoke points of fats if you are worried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Smoke_point_of_cooking_oils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Smoke_point_of_cookin...

ericd 7y ago
Really interesting, thanks for the brain dump! What do you look for to know when your pan is preheated enough to eg sear meat well if you don't wait for a little smoke?
- dragontamer 7y ago
  I do actually wait for a little smoke. It's a very consistent measurement of pan temperature. If I choose a 450F smoke point fat, like canola oil, I know that the pan is 450F when it starts to smoke. I got the reaction wrong earlier, mallard is 300F or so. Caramelization is 400F
  - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
    Close- wikipedia says 280°F to 330°F - see my comment above. But in that case, like I say in my longer comment, it doesn't make sense for olive oil to catch fire "easily", like you say in your previous comment. What olive oil are you using, if I'm not being too nosey? Sorry if I sound defensive- I'm just really surprised. olive oil is very common where I come from :)
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      Well, certainly not "catch on fire". Just emitting enough smoke to maybe set off a smoke alarm (but otherwise not really harmful in my experience). Light smoking is fine (and is good for gauging temperature), but heavy smoke will have a burnt taste and is an indicator that you were "cooking too hot". I don't cook with olive oil too often, so I can't say I remember the brand. I looked a few things up, and it seems like different olive-oils have different smoke points. https://www.jonbarron.org/diet-and-nutrition/healthiest-cooking-oil-chart-smoke-points https://www.jonbarron.org/diet-and-nutrition/healthiest-cook... According to this, some olive oil has a smoke point of 320F / 160C, but other olive-oils can have a smoke point as high as 468F. I don't know why olive oil has such a different range. I guess I'll experiment with olive oil more. It is quite possible that olive oil here in the USA is of lower-quality perhaps?
      - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
        You're right, the wikipedia article about smoke points says that it's the temperature at which oil begins to emit a bluish smoke, not flame. Well, I'm confused about that because I've never seen oil smoking, either. So I couldn't understand what it means for olive oil to "burn", even. Except if you deliberately set it on fire of course. Olive oil quality can depend on many things: where it comes from, how it is made, who makes it, etc. The one that's considered best is olive oil produced only from olives (i.e. no kernels) and only by mechanical means (specifically: no heat and no chemical treatments; so it's called "cold-extracted"). That's the quality that's sold as "extra virgin olive oil" though from what I understand there is no strict standard for what that means exactly. Then there's provenance. Generally, Spanish olive oil is considered best with Greek second (unless you ask a Greek of course) and Italian a distant third. Other countries in the Med also make it, e.g. Morocco etc. Italian olive oil has often been found to be adulterated, substituted for lower quality olive oils or just to be a mix of non-Italian olive oils (primarily Greek, apparently) so it's a case of not knowing what you eat. Anyway, I live in the UK where olive oil is imported and the good stuff tends to be expensive (£30ish for 25lt of Greek extra virgin but of course most people will buy smaller bottles that are more expensive). So my guess is that most olive oil consumed outside the Med tends to be of inferior quality, just because people don't know it well enough to justify spending the price. So if you experiment with it- get the good stuff. To be honest, I just get the stuff I always do and I have never had to think about quality or smoke points, so my advice is probably a little vague. Er. You won't set your house on fire just because some crazy Greek person on the internets said it's safe to cook with olive oil, eh? :)
  - ericd 7y ago
    Ah ok good to know, I’ll keep looking for a little smoke. Thought that might mean the taste was getting a little warped. Also might look into making some clarified butter. Great thread.
kop316 7y ago
I have a lot of bacon grease, but I have only used it in cornbread. I'll have to see where I can substitute it (per my earlier comment, bacon fat flour tortillas now sound very good).
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
>> You'll learn pretty quick when a fat burns quickly. Olive oil and bacon grease burn at really low temperatures and will create a thick cloud of smoke as it burns. I was wondering about that because it's mentioned in the article also: I don't understand why people say that olive oil burns easily. Look at the table you posted: the smoking point of two qualities of olive oil ("virgin" and "extra virgin, low acidity, high quality") is above 400°F (204°C) at 410°F and 405°F respectively. This is close to the 400°F you cite as the temperature necessary for the Maillard reaction, but the wikipedia article on the Maillard reaction states that: "The reaction is a form of non-enzymatic browning which typically proceeds rapidly from around 140 to 165 °C (280 to 330 °F)." In which case, even "extra virgin" olive oil, the olive oil quality listed as having the lowest smoking point of 160°C, can withstand the heat necessary for food to undergo the Maillard reaction. It makes even less sense that the Maillard reaction needs 400°F to get going. If you look at the wikipedia article for "Smoking point", where the table you link to comes from, it lists the average temperatures of frying and baking: Pan frying (sauté) on stove top heat: 120 °C (248 °F) Deep frying: 160 - 180 °C (320 °F - 356 °F) Oven baking: Average of 180 °C (356 °F) It wouldn't make sense for the Maillard reaction to need more than the average _baking_ temperature to occur! Finally, I'm the third generation of women in my family to cook with olive oil, to always cook with olive oil and to cook everything with olive oil. I fry, deep fry, boil, stir-fry, bake, sear, and so on everything with olive oil. I have never seen olive oil burning (emitting a blue flame and smoke) and I've never heard of anyone in my family, or in my broad circle of friends and acquaintances who has seen that. I have never heard it in the news either and if it was something that happens to olive oil when the food you're cooking with it is about to get tasty- it should be happening all the time [Edit: note that I've burned plenty of food in olive oil- but still not the olive oil]. Small point to note: I'm Greek and we do have good quality olive oil (and wine; and feta; and yoghurt; and nothing else). So my conclusion is: it's only cheap, low quality and most likely adulterated olive oil that catches fire in low temperatures. (See the wikipedia article on olive oil about adulteration. It's a big thing in some other oil-producing countries, and I don't mean Saudi Arabia).
- hansthehorse 7y ago
  Avocado oil has a 520 degree smoke point and a neutral taste. I have completely switched to it (I buy it at Costco) and use olive oil only for salads or tomato/mozzarela combinations and things like that.