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>Another one would be that one can be elected without the approval of the majority of the people who could vote. That's simply handled by saying that they shou

>Another one would be that one can be elected without the approval of the majority of the people who could vote. That's simply handled by saying that they should vote. >one can legally be elected without the having the majority of the counter, valid, votes How so? If you are referring to the President, did he not win the majority of the valid votes in the population allowed to vote? You could say there is an issue with only allowing a subset of the population to vote, but most people I've seen making such a claims still believe their own limits as for who can vote are valid and have not offered me a reason as to why one method is more valid than the other.

will_walker 7y ago
I’m not sure this is just being written in bad faith, but in the 2016 presidential election, the winner had over 3 million less votes (over 2% of votes tallied). The electoral college system of the US values certain voters more than others in terms of assigning points to the contestants.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  I'm aware of the 2016 situation. What I'm saying is that the 'popular vote' is not actually a vote. The vote for president is based on 538 people who are eligible to vote, and in that vote Trump won. Now, I know some people have issues with that only a very select group of people are allowed to vote for such a powerful position. But my counter point to that is where is the real differences compared to rules that say you have to be 18 to vote or you have certain legal status to vote. All of these laws can have an attempted justification made under the same argument of 'that's the way we've done it', 'it is how the Constitution says it should be done' or even 'if enough people wanted to, the Constitution can be modified to change it'. >in terms of assigning points to the contestants Is it actually assigning points? I thought it worked by states picking the 538 voters who will vote for president. In 2016 there was some debate on if those 538 people actually had to vote the way they said they would when they were picked, but from my memory the conclusion is that they do not. That's why I think it should be counted as the actual vote for president and not an assignment of points.
  - SahAssar 7y ago
    But the system (regardless of if you call it "points" or "an actual vote") means that one candidate could get 78% of the popular vote and still loose as discussed in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k (it talks about how it's possible to win the electoral college with only 22% of the popular vote). I don't think that can be called a fair "actual vote".
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      Can you give me the criteria for being 'fair'? To me, the vote seems fair because it was the conditions to form the USA, and the USA has had centuries to change it but has chosen not to. At least, it is as fair as a vote that requires 'citizenship' to count, given that lack of citizenship doesn't stop one form being directly impacted by the decisions of the President.
ElFitz 7y ago
Just as a friendly reminder, I am replying to someone who stated > The government is elected by the people [...] And ok, yes. Phrased my answer wrong. He was elected by the majority of the valid votes (those of the electoral college). He also was elected by the people chosen by a minority of the total people who bothered voting in a a valid fashion. So no, the government isn't elected by the people. It is elected by some people, and it can be indirectly elected by a minority of the people who bother to vote in a valid fashion. Although it is more accurate, it does seem much less readable.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >It is elected by some people, What do you think of requirements to vote? Like being 18. Being a citizen. Do you think everyone should get a say, or only some people?
ElFitz 7y ago
> That's simply handled by saying that they should vote. So people should vote for somebody, anybody, even though they'd rather not vote for any of the offered options ? Pick the ones the less indifferent to them? Pick the ones they don't believe in the least? Pick the ones they believe to be the less corrupt? Pick the ones the least likely to cause them the most harm? I don't know the origin of most of these people's motivation not to vote, or their lack of motivation to vote, but it is quite telling that they won't take a few hours every few years to pick who they believe should have what is supposed to be the most important and impactful job in their country. And that, in itself, is a choice. A worrying one. A disheartening one. One that says "None of this, and none of these people, are worth even a couple hours of my life". A choice made by many, too many, that some discard saying "That's simply handled by saying that they should vote", when they already did.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >So people should vote for somebody, anybody, even though they'd rather not vote for any of the offered options ? The offered options are numerous. That most people who do vote only want two of the group and thus no one else even has a chance is part of democracy in action, and perhaps a view as to what is wrong with such a system. For long term gains, people who don't vote can try to push for the most popular third party candidate to shake up the system. If enough win, they may support voting reform that will change how votes are counted. There are also other options. For example, convincing other people to not vote. I honestly do not see why this is viewed as bad. If my argument can't convince someone to vote for the one I think will do a good job but can convince them to not vote for one of the ones I think will do a bad job, why not use that argument? >And that, in itself, is a choice. A worrying one. A disheartening one. Is it much different than people who skip out on jury duty instead of getting to make sure the 'facts' align with their own view of reality? People are overall too complacent, which may just be an indictment that things are still going well enough.

will_walker 7y ago

I’m not sure this is just being written in bad faith, but in the 2016 presidential election, the winner had over 3 million less votes (over 2% of votes tallied). The electoral college system of the US values certain voters more than others in terms of assigning points to the contestants.

SkyBelow 7y ago
I'm aware of the 2016 situation. What I'm saying is that the 'popular vote' is not actually a vote. The vote for president is based on 538 people who are eligible to vote, and in that vote Trump won. Now, I know some people have issues with that only a very select group of people are allowed to vote for such a powerful position. But my counter point to that is where is the real differences compared to rules that say you have to be 18 to vote or you have certain legal status to vote. All of these laws can have an attempted justification made under the same argument of 'that's the way we've done it', 'it is how the Constitution says it should be done' or even 'if enough people wanted to, the Constitution can be modified to change it'. >in terms of assigning points to the contestants Is it actually assigning points? I thought it worked by states picking the 538 voters who will vote for president. In 2016 there was some debate on if those 538 people actually had to vote the way they said they would when they were picked, but from my memory the conclusion is that they do not. That's why I think it should be counted as the actual vote for president and not an assignment of points.
- SahAssar 7y ago
  But the system (regardless of if you call it "points" or "an actual vote") means that one candidate could get 78% of the popular vote and still loose as discussed in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k (it talks about how it's possible to win the electoral college with only 22% of the popular vote). I don't think that can be called a fair "actual vote".
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    Can you give me the criteria for being 'fair'? To me, the vote seems fair because it was the conditions to form the USA, and the USA has had centuries to change it but has chosen not to. At least, it is as fair as a vote that requires 'citizenship' to count, given that lack of citizenship doesn't stop one form being directly impacted by the decisions of the President.

ElFitz 7y ago

Just as a friendly reminder, I am replying to someone who stated > The government is elected by the people [...] And ok, yes. Phrased my answer wrong. He was elected by the majority of the valid votes (those of the electoral college). He also was elected by the people chosen by a minority of the total people who bothered voting in a a valid fashion. So no, the government isn't elected by the people. It is elected by some people, and it can be indirectly elected by a minority of the people who bother to vote in a valid fashion. Although it is more accurate, it does seem much less readable.

SkyBelow 7y ago
>It is elected by some people, What do you think of requirements to vote? Like being 18. Being a citizen. Do you think everyone should get a say, or only some people?

ElFitz 7y ago

> That's simply handled by saying that they should vote. So people should vote for somebody, anybody, even though they'd rather not vote for any of the offered options ? Pick the ones the less indifferent to them? Pick the ones they don't believe in the least? Pick the ones they believe to be the less corrupt? Pick the ones the least likely to cause them the most harm? I don't know the origin of most of these people's motivation not to vote, or their lack of motivation to vote, but it is quite telling that they won't take a few hours every few years to pick who they believe should have what is supposed to be the most important and impactful job in their country. And that, in itself, is a choice. A worrying one. A disheartening one. One that says "None of this, and none of these people, are worth even a couple hours of my life". A choice made by many, too many, that some discard saying "That's simply handled by saying that they should vote", when they already did.

SkyBelow 7y ago
>So people should vote for somebody, anybody, even though they'd rather not vote for any of the offered options ? The offered options are numerous. That most people who do vote only want two of the group and thus no one else even has a chance is part of democracy in action, and perhaps a view as to what is wrong with such a system. For long term gains, people who don't vote can try to push for the most popular third party candidate to shake up the system. If enough win, they may support voting reform that will change how votes are counted. There are also other options. For example, convincing other people to not vote. I honestly do not see why this is viewed as bad. If my argument can't convince someone to vote for the one I think will do a good job but can convince them to not vote for one of the ones I think will do a bad job, why not use that argument? >And that, in itself, is a choice. A worrying one. A disheartening one. Is it much different than people who skip out on jury duty instead of getting to make sure the 'facts' align with their own view of reality? People are overall too complacent, which may just be an indictment that things are still going well enough.