9 ms·

I expect to be able to sit in my seat without having my knees crushed? How about that for a start?

leesalminen 7y ago
Then you could purchase a different fare class. The market has largely spoken already- people prefer lower fares over comfortable seats.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Nacraile 7y ago
  Ah, yes, it is definitely reasonable to draw that conclusion based on people's disinclination to spend 100% the fare for a 10% larger, somewhat less uncomfortable seat, and/or 1000% the fare for 50% more space and an actually comfortable seat.
  - leesalminen 7y ago
    You seem to have left out Premium Economy class that’s available on many (most?) airlines. Personally, I tend to opt for that fare class as I find the seat more tolerable at a reasonable price point.
    - throwaway3563 7y ago
      Premium economy is still usually at least 2x the economy ticket price; on a long haul that will cost many hundreds to up to thousands extra. What you’re probably thinking of is the US airline specific “comfort/extra/plus” add-on that is priced 10%-20% extra. There is a few more inches legroom but the seats are the same small economy seats.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  The prices does not scale up too well for the travelers, but for the airlines. The extra that you get does not match the huge jump in price.
  - yibg 7y ago
    Premium economy / economy plus seem to scale pretty well. Most of the times I’ve booked it’s been about 10% extra in cost for about 10% space on the plane. E.g 34 inches instead of 31 inches of pitch.
    - throwaway3563 7y ago
      To be clear, premium economy and economy+ are different things. The former uses larger seats and is typically available on long-hauls. The seat is somewhat similar to old-style business class seats, or modern domestic first class seats. It is not priced at 10% extra, it is usually close to double. The latter is priced at around 10% extra, but is the same old economy seat just with a couple of inches more legroom. It would be nice to have to pay only 10% extra to get 10% more space, but the lack of scaling is by design on the airlines part, and textbook market segmentation. Edit: this article has pictures showing the difference: https://www.cntraveler.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-premium-economy-and-economy-plus https://www.cntraveler.com/story/whats-the-difference-betwee...
    - erik_seaberg 7y ago
      I once got an economy plus seat at a bulkhead and had to stow my laptop bag somewhere behind me. I'd rather squeeze into economy than pay extra for having no way to kill time but wonder whether it'll be stolen.
lokedhs 7y ago
One option is to not fly american airlines (with a lower case a). The highest rated US airline is 3 out of 5 stars on Skytrax. As far as I understand, the reason for this is that foreign airlines are not allowed to fly US domestic routes, and most US people don't fly international which means they don't know that things could be better. It also seems like people in the US to a greater extent than other countries only cares about ticket price, which means that even if an airline wants to improve their quality they can't use it to compete because customers will simply not see them, since they sort by price on the travel site and pick the first one on the list.
- jolmg 7y ago
  > most people in the US only cares about ticket price, which means that even if an airline wants to improve their quality they can't use it to compete With regards to quality, do airlines in other places generally provide more bang for the buck or are they just generally more expensive than US flights to provide for the higher quality?
  - lokedhs 7y ago
    To be honest, I don't know. It's hard to compare for the US domestic flights, since you have to decide on comparable routes. That said, flights throughout Asia at distances similar to US domestic flights tend to be reasonably cheap. I decided to make a comparison: Fly Singapore Airlines from Singapore to Hong Kong. This will cost you 225 USD in economy. A domestic US flight of the same distance would be San Francisco to Albuquerque on United Airlines. This flight will cost you 468 USD. So it seems to me that Singapore Airlines is able to provide better quality at much lower cost. Perhaps the US airlines simply don't have to be better because there is no one that shows it can be done?
    - doublement 7y ago
      Albuquerque isn't a major destination though. Flying to provincial cities is always expensive. A better comparison with about the same distance in the US is New York to Miami, which can be done nonstop for under $200 on Delta, or $135 on whatever "Frontier" is. EDIT: In fact you can go from New York to Las Vegas for under $200, round-trip, which is considerably farther.
somurzakov 7y ago
book an emergency exit seat for extra $50 or something
alkonaut 7y ago
I’m 6ft and have normal length legs. I don’t have any issue doing a 5h flight on a 737 with minimum pitch. I wouldn’t pay extra for legroom, but people who are taller than me would, I imagine.
rosybox 7y ago
I'm 6'2" and my knees used to be painfully squeezed into seats and everything was incredibly uncomfortable on flights. At the time I weighed 275lb. I've since lost weight and I was surprised how much more comfortable flying is. You wouldn't think being obese would impact knees not having enough space, but my ass shrank in multiple directions and I have about four to five inches of free space now between the seat in front of me and my knees. Unless you're much taller than I am, it's likely that losing weight will not just help with your health, but make flying more comfortable. If you are taller, well, life sucks for us tall people in many ways and we can't expect airlines to build comfortable seats for people two or three standard deviations beyond the normal height.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  There is no normal height. https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
  - rosybox 7y ago
    > There is no normal height. There more certainly is a statistically average height. > Out of 4,063 pilots, not a single airman fit within the average range on all 10 dimensions. This article is comparing 10 dimensions of variability and we're talking about just one here, the one you yourself mentioned, height.
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      Statistically or mathematically average height does not equal normal height, it has no relevance in this discussion. If you read the article, the average does not fit most people even if you take a single dimension, height.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
        Within one standard deviation of the mean does, by definition, fit most people for a normally distributed factor like height. (64% > 50%, thus most). "Within 1 standard deviation of the mean" is a decent (if possibly overly strict) definition for "normal" in this context.
AmericanChopper 7y ago
You could always buy a business class seat then. Economy is supposed to be uncomfortable because all the things that would make it comfortable have been removed to make it cheaper.
esoterica 7y ago
Then pay for an exit row seat. If I want cheaper seats instead of more legroom, why should I be forced to subsidize YOUR consumer preferences?
joe_the_user 7y ago
Flying you essentially pay by the inch at a price that's remarkable low historically speaking. The service has no more romance than what a Greyhound bus ride once offered (and don't ask what that's like now). This is either a triumph of choice, markets, and abundance or grim, barbaric end to flight as uplifting experience. It's also safer than it's ever been. We can each decide, I suppose.

Then you could purchase a different fare class. The market has largely spoken already- people prefer lower fares over comfortable seats.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Nacraile 7y ago
Ah, yes, it is definitely reasonable to draw that conclusion based on people's disinclination to spend 100% the fare for a 10% larger, somewhat less uncomfortable seat, and/or 1000% the fare for 50% more space and an actually comfortable seat.
- leesalminen 7y ago
  You seem to have left out Premium Economy class that’s available on many (most?) airlines. Personally, I tend to opt for that fare class as I find the seat more tolerable at a reasonable price point.
  - throwaway3563 7y ago
    Premium economy is still usually at least 2x the economy ticket price; on a long haul that will cost many hundreds to up to thousands extra. What you’re probably thinking of is the US airline specific “comfort/extra/plus” add-on that is priced 10%-20% extra. There is a few more inches legroom but the seats are the same small economy seats.
AdrianB1 7y ago
The prices does not scale up too well for the travelers, but for the airlines. The extra that you get does not match the huge jump in price.
- yibg 7y ago
  Premium economy / economy plus seem to scale pretty well. Most of the times I’ve booked it’s been about 10% extra in cost for about 10% space on the plane. E.g 34 inches instead of 31 inches of pitch.
  - throwaway3563 7y ago
    To be clear, premium economy and economy+ are different things. The former uses larger seats and is typically available on long-hauls. The seat is somewhat similar to old-style business class seats, or modern domestic first class seats. It is not priced at 10% extra, it is usually close to double. The latter is priced at around 10% extra, but is the same old economy seat just with a couple of inches more legroom. It would be nice to have to pay only 10% extra to get 10% more space, but the lack of scaling is by design on the airlines part, and textbook market segmentation. Edit: this article has pictures showing the difference: https://www.cntraveler.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-premium-economy-and-economy-plus https://www.cntraveler.com/story/whats-the-difference-betwee...
  - erik_seaberg 7y ago
    I once got an economy plus seat at a bulkhead and had to stow my laptop bag somewhere behind me. I'd rather squeeze into economy than pay extra for having no way to kill time but wonder whether it'll be stolen.

lokedhs 7y ago

One option is to not fly american airlines (with a lower case a). The highest rated US airline is 3 out of 5 stars on Skytrax. As far as I understand, the reason for this is that foreign airlines are not allowed to fly US domestic routes, and most US people don't fly international which means they don't know that things could be better. It also seems like people in the US to a greater extent than other countries only cares about ticket price, which means that even if an airline wants to improve their quality they can't use it to compete because customers will simply not see them, since they sort by price on the travel site and pick the first one on the list.

jolmg 7y ago
> most people in the US only cares about ticket price, which means that even if an airline wants to improve their quality they can't use it to compete With regards to quality, do airlines in other places generally provide more bang for the buck or are they just generally more expensive than US flights to provide for the higher quality?
- lokedhs 7y ago
  To be honest, I don't know. It's hard to compare for the US domestic flights, since you have to decide on comparable routes. That said, flights throughout Asia at distances similar to US domestic flights tend to be reasonably cheap. I decided to make a comparison: Fly Singapore Airlines from Singapore to Hong Kong. This will cost you 225 USD in economy. A domestic US flight of the same distance would be San Francisco to Albuquerque on United Airlines. This flight will cost you 468 USD. So it seems to me that Singapore Airlines is able to provide better quality at much lower cost. Perhaps the US airlines simply don't have to be better because there is no one that shows it can be done?
  - doublement 7y ago
    Albuquerque isn't a major destination though. Flying to provincial cities is always expensive. A better comparison with about the same distance in the US is New York to Miami, which can be done nonstop for under $200 on Delta, or $135 on whatever "Frontier" is. EDIT: In fact you can go from New York to Las Vegas for under $200, round-trip, which is considerably farther.

somurzakov 7y ago

book an emergency exit seat for extra $50 or something

alkonaut 7y ago

I’m 6ft and have normal length legs. I don’t have any issue doing a 5h flight on a 737 with minimum pitch. I wouldn’t pay extra for legroom, but people who are taller than me would, I imagine.

rosybox 7y ago

I'm 6'2" and my knees used to be painfully squeezed into seats and everything was incredibly uncomfortable on flights. At the time I weighed 275lb. I've since lost weight and I was surprised how much more comfortable flying is. You wouldn't think being obese would impact knees not having enough space, but my ass shrank in multiple directions and I have about four to five inches of free space now between the seat in front of me and my knees. Unless you're much taller than I am, it's likely that losing weight will not just help with your health, but make flying more comfortable. If you are taller, well, life sucks for us tall people in many ways and we can't expect airlines to build comfortable seats for people two or three standard deviations beyond the normal height.

AdrianB1 7y ago
There is no normal height. https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
- rosybox 7y ago
  > There is no normal height. There more certainly is a statistically average height. > Out of 4,063 pilots, not a single airman fit within the average range on all 10 dimensions. This article is comparing 10 dimensions of variability and we're talking about just one here, the one you yourself mentioned, height.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    Statistically or mathematically average height does not equal normal height, it has no relevance in this discussion. If you read the article, the average does not fit most people even if you take a single dimension, height.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
      Within one standard deviation of the mean does, by definition, fit most people for a normally distributed factor like height. (64% > 50%, thus most). "Within 1 standard deviation of the mean" is a decent (if possibly overly strict) definition for "normal" in this context.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

You could always buy a business class seat then. Economy is supposed to be uncomfortable because all the things that would make it comfortable have been removed to make it cheaper.

esoterica 7y ago

Then pay for an exit row seat. If I want cheaper seats instead of more legroom, why should I be forced to subsidize YOUR consumer preferences?

joe_the_user 7y ago

Flying you essentially pay by the inch at a price that's remarkable low historically speaking. The service has no more romance than what a Greyhound bus ride once offered (and don't ask what that's like now). This is either a triumph of choice, markets, and abundance or grim, barbaric end to flight as uplifting experience. It's also safer than it's ever been. We can each decide, I suppose.