5 ms·

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is s

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

fountainofage 7y ago
Or is the issue that school starts rewarding this kind of behavior, and it carries into adulthood?
- gtirloni 7y ago
  That's a basic human trait.
  - Filligree 7y ago
    Perhaps we shouldn't encourage it.
sametmax 7y ago
Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  I understand what you are saying, but the level of damage you are implying is way, way higher than the vast majority of students go through. I say this as someone who was regularly bullied through primary school. Social dynamics are important, and you learn best through experiencing it. If it's as bad for you as you are implying, that is a massive failure on the schools part and that sucks you went through it.
- giardini 7y ago
  " putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years"? Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. As for the sword cartoon you linked to: there was nothing better than getting my first Boy Scout knife. Within a few days I had blooded my blade by cutting myself, thereby learning new respect for a tool that lasted decades. My experience is that every boy cuts himself once with his pocket knife, and then begins to pay attention to what he is doing with it(1). Every child should be given a pocket knife at the appropriate age. I liked school. I learned all the basics there. The teachers wanted to help me. I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation. Most discussions of bullying bring out old grievances that should have been dealt with long since and then forgotten. But they often merely fester. That's a shame. (1) it's like the "hand in the fire" thing. I remember the first time I put my hand over the stove flame - the picture of it remains in my head! Wow, was that ever a lesson! Do that with a neural net!
  - aidenn0 7y ago
    > I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation. Yes, being a tall extravert will discourage bullying. I was 4'8" when I started 7th grade, but 5'10" when I started 9th grade, so I saw the difference rather drastically. (FWIW I was personally physically bullied well more than the one time you witnessed, and I was nowhere near the most bullied kid in school). From your experience, associating schooling with bullying is probably foreign. From my experience, I can't imagine anyone going through school without witnessing more than one act of physical bullying, because all forms of bullying were so omnipresent. Perhaps the term "Umwelt" applies here. As physical bullying has become less socially accepted, the harms of non-physical bullying may have surpassed the harms of physical bullying today. I know many kids who were driven to self-harm from non-physical bullying. There was a teacher who would bully certain students causing them to drop out of the advanced math track (she was the only HS teacher teaching the 10th grade requirement for the track). > >" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years"? > Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. I think, for some kids, it's not too much of an exaggeration, which is exactly why many kids drop out of school. I have heard stories of (and personally witnessed one) bullied kids jumping out of moving vehicles to avoid going to school. I think for most kids, public schooling is "okay" for some it's great, but for many others, calling it institutionalized torture is not much of a stretch.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Kids, since millennia, had hanged out and played in communities with kids of the same roughly age (and some bigger and scarier) before mandatory education / school was a thing... It's not like absence of school meant kids would just be alone in their homes...
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    But, why do you say same-aged children? In the generally smaller communities of the past having [lots of] children of the same year of age would be much rarer. In the village I grew up in the out-of-school friend groups were often across several years of age; and that's from a background of schooling. Kids I know now, that are non-schooled, have very broad age-groups of friends and seem, to me, to be much more comfortable with company of any age.
VvR-Ox 7y ago
Or you die trying like some people at my school did. I am sure there has to be a more human way to learn to deal with this.
aga98mtl 7y ago
I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. Only prison is like this. In normal life, groups (Work, Family, social gatherings) are of mixed age, mixed experience, mixed rank. To become a better person, I had to forget the pettiness of High School social dynamics.
- gwd 7y ago
  > I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very few consequences for poor behavior. At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. At school, you have to almost murder somebody to actually be expelled, and most kids have very limited ability to change schools or classes if they're unhappy.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    > At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Working with people in a system is a skill that you figure out by being exposed to other people and dealing with their crap. If you've worked with military veterans, maintaining focus on what you need to do while navigating insane systems and coworkers is a core skill that they usually have.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Its the nuclear option, and it is commonly executed. Ex: Internet forums, Dungeon Mastering, various social events, etc. etc. * The group-leader of most social groups can effectively say "We're not hanging out with you anymore" by refusing invitations. * Bosses at jobs can fire people. * Dungeon Masters can outright refuse play against problematic players. * Moderators of forums (ex: even YCombinator) can silence any party and ban them. Etc. etc. etc. The "real world" dynamics have the implicit threat of excommunication from any group. The threat of excommunication is the fundamental political weapon of most social groups. Is this tool used often? No, of course not. But the tool is available in every realistic social setting for a reason. We humans are social animals, and humans who refuse to play ball socially deserve to be ostracized from the group. Not all groups are worthwhile, and many groups are toxic. So the alternative here is also keeping the ability to change groups (move sideways within a company, or find new dungeon masters or basketball friends, or whatever). The first tool exists in schools (the "boss", the school principle and teachers, have the ability to suspend or expel students). The second tool: the ability to move schools, doesn't really exist for most people.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
throwaway743 7y ago
Oddly enough I never got bullied in school, but did (and still do from time to time) get bullied upon entering the workforce. Never fought for social acceptance, just kind of fell into place. Actively pursuing it would exhaust energy that could otherwise be directed to productive or fun activities. Stress, pressure, and hypocrisy seem like natural occurrences. But yeah, unless someone has 0 responsibilities (work, life, family, hobbies, etc) these aspects of life are nearly, if not completely, impossible to never encounter
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
>> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. > So at least you got prepared for that. This has nothing to do with "preparing" people.

fountainofage 7y ago

Or is the issue that school starts rewarding this kind of behavior, and it carries into adulthood?

gtirloni 7y ago
That's a basic human trait.
- Filligree 7y ago
  Perhaps we shouldn't encourage it.

sametmax 7y ago

Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it

JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
I understand what you are saying, but the level of damage you are implying is way, way higher than the vast majority of students go through. I say this as someone who was regularly bullied through primary school. Social dynamics are important, and you learn best through experiencing it. If it's as bad for you as you are implying, that is a massive failure on the schools part and that sucks you went through it.
giardini 7y ago
" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years"? Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. As for the sword cartoon you linked to: there was nothing better than getting my first Boy Scout knife. Within a few days I had blooded my blade by cutting myself, thereby learning new respect for a tool that lasted decades. My experience is that every boy cuts himself once with his pocket knife, and then begins to pay attention to what he is doing with it(1). Every child should be given a pocket knife at the appropriate age. I liked school. I learned all the basics there. The teachers wanted to help me. I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation. Most discussions of bullying bring out old grievances that should have been dealt with long since and then forgotten. But they often merely fester. That's a shame. (1) it's like the "hand in the fire" thing. I remember the first time I put my hand over the stove flame - the picture of it remains in my head! Wow, was that ever a lesson! Do that with a neural net!
- aidenn0 7y ago
  > I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation. Yes, being a tall extravert will discourage bullying. I was 4'8" when I started 7th grade, but 5'10" when I started 9th grade, so I saw the difference rather drastically. (FWIW I was personally physically bullied well more than the one time you witnessed, and I was nowhere near the most bullied kid in school). From your experience, associating schooling with bullying is probably foreign. From my experience, I can't imagine anyone going through school without witnessing more than one act of physical bullying, because all forms of bullying were so omnipresent. Perhaps the term "Umwelt" applies here. As physical bullying has become less socially accepted, the harms of non-physical bullying may have surpassed the harms of physical bullying today. I know many kids who were driven to self-harm from non-physical bullying. There was a teacher who would bully certain students causing them to drop out of the advanced math track (she was the only HS teacher teaching the 10th grade requirement for the track). > >" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years"? > Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. I think, for some kids, it's not too much of an exaggeration, which is exactly why many kids drop out of school. I have heard stories of (and personally witnessed one) bullied kids jumping out of moving vehicles to avoid going to school. I think for most kids, public schooling is "okay" for some it's great, but for many others, calling it institutionalized torture is not much of a stretch.
coldtea 7y ago
Kids, since millennia, had hanged out and played in communities with kids of the same roughly age (and some bigger and scarier) before mandatory education / school was a thing... It's not like absence of school meant kids would just be alone in their homes...
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  But, why do you say same-aged children? In the generally smaller communities of the past having [lots of] children of the same year of age would be much rarer. In the village I grew up in the out-of-school friend groups were often across several years of age; and that's from a background of schooling. Kids I know now, that are non-schooled, have very broad age-groups of friends and seem, to me, to be much more comfortable with company of any age.

VvR-Ox 7y ago

Or you die trying like some people at my school did. I am sure there has to be a more human way to learn to deal with this.

aga98mtl 7y ago

I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. Only prison is like this. In normal life, groups (Work, Family, social gatherings) are of mixed age, mixed experience, mixed rank. To become a better person, I had to forget the pettiness of High School social dynamics.

gwd 7y ago
> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very few consequences for poor behavior. At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. At school, you have to almost murder somebody to actually be expelled, and most kids have very limited ability to change schools or classes if they're unhappy.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  > At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Working with people in a system is a skill that you figure out by being exposed to other people and dealing with their crap. If you've worked with military veterans, maintaining focus on what you need to do while navigating insane systems and coworkers is a core skill that they usually have.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Its the nuclear option, and it is commonly executed. Ex: Internet forums, Dungeon Mastering, various social events, etc. etc. * The group-leader of most social groups can effectively say "We're not hanging out with you anymore" by refusing invitations. * Bosses at jobs can fire people. * Dungeon Masters can outright refuse play against problematic players. * Moderators of forums (ex: even YCombinator) can silence any party and ban them. Etc. etc. etc. The "real world" dynamics have the implicit threat of excommunication from any group. The threat of excommunication is the fundamental political weapon of most social groups. Is this tool used often? No, of course not. But the tool is available in every realistic social setting for a reason. We humans are social animals, and humans who refuse to play ball socially deserve to be ostracized from the group. Not all groups are worthwhile, and many groups are toxic. So the alternative here is also keeping the ability to change groups (move sideways within a company, or find new dungeon masters or basketball friends, or whatever). The first tool exists in schools (the "boss", the school principle and teachers, have the ability to suspend or expel students). The second tool: the ability to move schools, doesn't really exist for most people.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

throwaway743 7y ago

Oddly enough I never got bullied in school, but did (and still do from time to time) get bullied upon entering the workforce. Never fought for social acceptance, just kind of fell into place. Actively pursuing it would exhaust energy that could otherwise be directed to productive or fun activities. Stress, pressure, and hypocrisy seem like natural occurrences. But yeah, unless someone has 0 responsibilities (work, life, family, hobbies, etc) these aspects of life are nearly, if not completely, impossible to never encounter

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

>> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. > So at least you got prepared for that. This has nothing to do with "preparing" people.