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+1. Even as an adult, If I could do it all again, I would avoid school as much as possible. School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough exper

+1. Even as an adult, If I could do it all again, I would avoid school as much as possible. School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Not saying every kid should do the same of course. But personnally, after being in 11 schools, including fancy private ones and ones in poor neighbourhoods, I found extremly few decent teachers, a very violent and boring environment, and a culture that killed the best things in young minds while promoting unfairness. And while I was often top of my class, I didn't learn much. Took me 3 months to learn to read, a bit more to write and count, and after that, everything was just more fun to learn alone than in the depressive and repressive jail of school. Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. All at an age I didn't have yet the skill and knowldge to deal with it.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Couldn't have said it better myself Something you didn't mention though which always drove me crazy with school was how often it robbed me of the discovery and exploration portions of the learning experience. Those portions form the substance of life, for me anyways, and every time a teacher would explain things I was on the cusp of understanding on my own anyways it drove me absolutely nuts. Like someone telling you the spoilers to a book or movie you're deeply engaged in. And when I had already understood concepts the curriculum hadn't yet reached, and had my own perfectly correct and effective methods which happened to differ from whatever they taught when we arrived there, I'd be in trouble for using my familiar and preferred methods. Despite the fact that I actually had a deeper understanding of the problem than someone only having memorized whatever method was being taught, since it was something I had actually encountered in life and figured out independently. This happened so many times in math classes, my teachers started accusing me of cheating on tests because I would ace them while not doing any of the homework. Later on after switching to a non-religious school it became even worse, because we were rehashing stuff all over again like it was a year behind my previous school. If I had to do it all again I'd have fought harder against school and religion from an earlier age, it was all an awful tar-pit that burned so much time and caused a lot of suffering.
- sametmax 7y ago
  Not that much related, but it's one of the reason I love the game "baba is you" so much. It explains nothing. But it is carefully crafted to drive you in the right direction so that you discover things by yourself, step by step, from early to very late levels. It's a very difficult balance for a puzzle game, espacially for something as original as baba is you, that requires you to think a lot out of the box: - a level completly chalenges your perception of what you are as a player - another one forces you to put yourself in a loosing position to win - one requires an object that does not exist at all in the entire level It's a joy to understand those new mechanisms. But it is a hard game, so it needs a way to help you without spoiling the fun of solving it. If you like level design like me, it's a treat, and a good example of great tutoring. Now as a teacher, I do that as well. But mixed to traditional teaching because I teach adults, and they want to compress the learning time and be productive fast, even at the price of a more superficial understanding.
anon9001 7y ago
I was going to write a lengthy comment to say the same, but I think you pretty much nailed it.
iforgotpassword 7y ago
> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.
- fountainofage 7y ago
  Or is the issue that school starts rewarding this kind of behavior, and it carries into adulthood?
  - gtirloni 7y ago
    That's a basic human trait.
    - Filligree 7y ago
      Perhaps we shouldn't encourage it.
- sametmax 7y ago
  Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    I understand what you are saying, but the level of damage you are implying is way, way higher than the vast majority of students go through. I say this as someone who was regularly bullied through primary school. Social dynamics are important, and you learn best through experiencing it. If it's as bad for you as you are implying, that is a massive failure on the schools part and that sucks you went through it.
  - 7y ago
zulgan 7y ago
I think that the point of school is in no way education. The point is to mold individuals in order to fit within 2 standard deviations of the norm, and it does all it can to do so (tests, medication, etc etc). If you are in the upper percentiles, you are used to bring the lower percentiles up, if you are in the lower you are used to bring balance. Now we are almost at the point of making not going to school illegal. (you can argue if mandatory is the same as illegal) -b
- kuzimoto 7y ago
  > Now we are almost at the point of making not going to school illegal. I'm fairly certain (at least for the US) it has been illegal. "By 1918, every state had a compulsory attendance law on the books." [1] According to this table, school attendance is compulsory for every state in the US for specific age ranges: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_1.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_1.asp [1] https://hslda.org/content/docs/nche/Issues/S/State_Compulsory_Attendance.asp https://hslda.org/content/docs/nche/Issues/S/State_Compulsor...
  - coldacid 7y ago
    At least in the USA there are options for alternative schooling and homeschooling, which allow exceptions to compulsory public school attendance. Look to Europe though and you'll find places where it's absolutely illegal to do anything but go through the child brainwashing factories. Germany is a good example of this.
  - scifi6546 7y ago
    In alaska there is no real punishment for skipping school
shotashotshota 7y ago
>School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. This might be true for you but I don't believe for 1 second that the common person is able to "learn on their own". Literally everything they want/need to know about anything is available on the internet but very, very few taught themselves to be educated.
- vintermann 7y ago
  That might change if they had to. Teachers who have experimented with "reverse classrooms" claim that 1. Students hate it, and 2. It is very effective.
coldtea 7y ago
>School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Is it? I'd bet most kids, left to their own devices, they'd eat fast food, watch cartoons, and play games all day, and not learn anything... >Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Aren't these the basic things school teaches? Socialization? People aren't all kind lovable beings, nor are situations non adversarial in life. From this there's retreat to isolation from life (e.g. like those Japanese who refuse to exit their homes), or learning how others can be, how you can respond, how to make friends, win over enemies, ignore or defeat people who try to put you down, etc. Tertium non datur.

newnewpdro 7y ago

Couldn't have said it better myself Something you didn't mention though which always drove me crazy with school was how often it robbed me of the discovery and exploration portions of the learning experience. Those portions form the substance of life, for me anyways, and every time a teacher would explain things I was on the cusp of understanding on my own anyways it drove me absolutely nuts. Like someone telling you the spoilers to a book or movie you're deeply engaged in. And when I had already understood concepts the curriculum hadn't yet reached, and had my own perfectly correct and effective methods which happened to differ from whatever they taught when we arrived there, I'd be in trouble for using my familiar and preferred methods. Despite the fact that I actually had a deeper understanding of the problem than someone only having memorized whatever method was being taught, since it was something I had actually encountered in life and figured out independently. This happened so many times in math classes, my teachers started accusing me of cheating on tests because I would ace them while not doing any of the homework. Later on after switching to a non-religious school it became even worse, because we were rehashing stuff all over again like it was a year behind my previous school. If I had to do it all again I'd have fought harder against school and religion from an earlier age, it was all an awful tar-pit that burned so much time and caused a lot of suffering.

sametmax 7y ago
Not that much related, but it's one of the reason I love the game "baba is you" so much. It explains nothing. But it is carefully crafted to drive you in the right direction so that you discover things by yourself, step by step, from early to very late levels. It's a very difficult balance for a puzzle game, espacially for something as original as baba is you, that requires you to think a lot out of the box: - a level completly chalenges your perception of what you are as a player - another one forces you to put yourself in a loosing position to win - one requires an object that does not exist at all in the entire level It's a joy to understand those new mechanisms. But it is a hard game, so it needs a way to help you without spoiling the fun of solving it. If you like level design like me, it's a treat, and a good example of great tutoring. Now as a teacher, I do that as well. But mixed to traditional teaching because I teach adults, and they want to compress the learning time and be productive fast, even at the price of a more superficial understanding.

anon9001 7y ago

I was going to write a lengthy comment to say the same, but I think you pretty much nailed it.

iforgotpassword 7y ago

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

fountainofage 7y ago
Or is the issue that school starts rewarding this kind of behavior, and it carries into adulthood?
- gtirloni 7y ago
  That's a basic human trait.
  - Filligree 7y ago
    Perhaps we shouldn't encourage it.
sametmax 7y ago
Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  I understand what you are saying, but the level of damage you are implying is way, way higher than the vast majority of students go through. I say this as someone who was regularly bullied through primary school. Social dynamics are important, and you learn best through experiencing it. If it's as bad for you as you are implying, that is a massive failure on the schools part and that sucks you went through it.
- 7y ago

zulgan 7y ago

I think that the point of school is in no way education. The point is to mold individuals in order to fit within 2 standard deviations of the norm, and it does all it can to do so (tests, medication, etc etc). If you are in the upper percentiles, you are used to bring the lower percentiles up, if you are in the lower you are used to bring balance. Now we are almost at the point of making not going to school illegal. (you can argue if mandatory is the same as illegal) -b

kuzimoto 7y ago
> Now we are almost at the point of making not going to school illegal. I'm fairly certain (at least for the US) it has been illegal. "By 1918, every state had a compulsory attendance law on the books." [1] According to this table, school attendance is compulsory for every state in the US for specific age ranges: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_1.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_1.asp [1] https://hslda.org/content/docs/nche/Issues/S/State_Compulsory_Attendance.asp https://hslda.org/content/docs/nche/Issues/S/State_Compulsor...
- coldacid 7y ago
  At least in the USA there are options for alternative schooling and homeschooling, which allow exceptions to compulsory public school attendance. Look to Europe though and you'll find places where it's absolutely illegal to do anything but go through the child brainwashing factories. Germany is a good example of this.
- scifi6546 7y ago
  In alaska there is no real punishment for skipping school

shotashotshota 7y ago

>School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. This might be true for you but I don't believe for 1 second that the common person is able to "learn on their own". Literally everything they want/need to know about anything is available on the internet but very, very few taught themselves to be educated.

vintermann 7y ago
That might change if they had to. Teachers who have experimented with "reverse classrooms" claim that 1. Students hate it, and 2. It is very effective.

coldtea 7y ago

>School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Is it? I'd bet most kids, left to their own devices, they'd eat fast food, watch cartoons, and play games all day, and not learn anything... >Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Aren't these the basic things school teaches? Socialization? People aren't all kind lovable beings, nor are situations non adversarial in life. From this there's retreat to isolation from life (e.g. like those Japanese who refuse to exit their homes), or learning how others can be, how you can respond, how to make friends, win over enemies, ignore or defeat people who try to put you down, etc. Tertium non datur.