10 ms·

From experience of trying to converse with actual fluent speakers of Mandarin, there is a huge gap going from what you learn in the classroom, where you practis

by yomly 7y ago

From experience of trying to converse with actual fluent speakers of Mandarin, there is a huge gap going from what you learn in the classroom, where you practise the tones in slow-mo, and how people speak and listen in reality. IMO there's no replacement for hardcore practise here - at the end of the day it is most like a physical skill so the learning tools you use for practising an instrument or sports technique are going to serve you well. Focus on shortening the tones you sound (while staying accurate) and focus on combining tones. Thankfully there are only 4 tones so only 16 unique combinations of two tones (actually only 15 because 3->3 isn't really used) And only 64 combinations of 3 tones If you master those combinations in terms of speed and accuracy (both speaking and listening) the rest of it can be composed. Then begins the long path to memorizing every phoneme+tone -> character pairing :)

drchiu 7y ago
I remember the same thing. The tones can be picked up relatively easily when practicing with actual Mandarin speakers. There becomes a "in-use" memory that's easier to recall than trying to remember all those tone strokes.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  I haven't had real-life experience, but I experienced a similar effect from vocabulary drilling in Duolingo and Skritter. Those have audio, and it tends to help with the memorizing.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how the language is used. Additionally writing things, chatting and the like. Third phase is immersion with speaking and listening. Those phases overlap, of course, but in my opinion that's the overall process. I've used it successfully for English and Spanish (though I haven't completed phase 3 in Spanish yet). In Mandarin I'm currently struggling towards mastering HSK 4 vocabulary, though relatively advanced.
- faitswulff 7y ago
  The Pimsleur Method inverts those phases and focuses on speaking and listening first. I've found it to be quite effective.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    Hm, I'd say the Pimsleur method is quite good at teaching every-day language. Which is a worthwhile task, but the range of words is quite limited. I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. Of course, most people will start speakind and listening, in various forms, in phase 1 and 2. And that is actually necessary. But I think you won't be able to really grok "random" speech before having a good grasp at pretty much all the vocabulary you would encounter.
    - faitswulff 7y ago
      I would agree that Pimsleur lessons won't take you to HSK4/5, but they are a great way to get into the language first without all the more academic studies upfront.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. I have passed HSK4. I am not competent in Mandarin listening comprehension, or in speaking (to be fair, speaking isn't a part of the test). Those skills aren't necessary to pass. The audio samples for HSK4 are a lot more generous with you than actual speech is.
      - bayesian_horse 7y ago
        I meant more like "HSK-4 vocabulary without characters".
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
yellow_lead 7y ago
I came to say this as well. Especially the third tone, I think is misrepresented in many texts and classes incorrectly. It's taught as a "down then back up" but in real, normal speed conversation, just sounds like a slightly lower pitch. Unless of course you have certain combinations like two third tones in a row.
- jhanschoo 7y ago
  Yeah, there really isn't time to pronounce a down-then-back-up in casual speech.
jcampbell1 7y ago
I built a little tool to help with tone pairs. There are vocab sets to explore all the combinations and a listening exercise. There is a huge jump from knowing the 4 tones from a pinyin chart and listening to full sentences. Learning the flavor of the 16 (19?) combinations is a great stepping stone. https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-tones-learn-the-right-way-with-tone-pairs.php https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-tones-learn-the-right-way-...
- yomly 7y ago
  You're the best - I was just thinking that something with live vocab would be useful
GordonS 7y ago
> Focus on shortening the tones you sound (while staying accurate) and focus on combining tones. I think this is good advice. When I first started learning mandarin, I really emphasised the tones, I guess because my untrained ear found it difficult to distinguish between them, and also because I thought people might understand me better. But the first time I went to China, it was immediately obvious that people had a hard time understanding my (then rudimentary) mandarin, which I believe was in large part because of the over-exaggerated way I was using tones. In the 3 weeks I spent in China, my understanding and usage of the tones came on tremendously - way more than it ever could have if I wasn't immersion in the language. Your ear does need to kind of train before you hear and understand tones at a more intuitive level. To anyone learning Chinese, my advice would be to get yourself out there, even if it's just for a short time.
natch 7y ago
>there are only 4 tones 5
- yomly 7y ago
  I guess you're right - I don't know if emphasis placed on this has changed over the years but the neutral tone was always a bit of an after thought/edge case when I was taught. Though I also wouldn't really consider my formal Mandarin education to be particularly rigorous or thorough...
jhanschoo 7y ago
I'd like to add that moving from sterile classroom Mandarin to irl Mandarin, you'll notice that 1. You may realize that the tones are realized differently in a variety of ways depending on context, speaker, etc. 2. Just as you can parse a different accent, native speakers can still figure out what you're trying to say if your tones are slightly whack. After all, tonal information in Mandarin is lost when sung.

by yomly 7y ago

drchiu 7y ago

I remember the same thing. The tones can be picked up relatively easily when practicing with actual Mandarin speakers. There becomes a "in-use" memory that's easier to recall than trying to remember all those tone strokes.

bayesian_horse 7y ago
I haven't had real-life experience, but I experienced a similar effect from vocabulary drilling in Duolingo and Skritter. Those have audio, and it tends to help with the memorizing.

bayesian_horse 7y ago

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how the language is used. Additionally writing things, chatting and the like. Third phase is immersion with speaking and listening. Those phases overlap, of course, but in my opinion that's the overall process. I've used it successfully for English and Spanish (though I haven't completed phase 3 in Spanish yet). In Mandarin I'm currently struggling towards mastering HSK 4 vocabulary, though relatively advanced.

faitswulff 7y ago
The Pimsleur Method inverts those phases and focuses on speaking and listening first. I've found it to be quite effective.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  Hm, I'd say the Pimsleur method is quite good at teaching every-day language. Which is a worthwhile task, but the range of words is quite limited. I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. Of course, most people will start speakind and listening, in various forms, in phase 1 and 2. And that is actually necessary. But I think you won't be able to really grok "random" speech before having a good grasp at pretty much all the vocabulary you would encounter.
  - faitswulff 7y ago
    I would agree that Pimsleur lessons won't take you to HSK4/5, but they are a great way to get into the language first without all the more academic studies upfront.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. I have passed HSK4. I am not competent in Mandarin listening comprehension, or in speaking (to be fair, speaking isn't a part of the test). Those skills aren't necessary to pass. The audio samples for HSK4 are a lot more generous with you than actual speech is.
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      I meant more like "HSK-4 vocabulary without characters".
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

yellow_lead 7y ago

I came to say this as well. Especially the third tone, I think is misrepresented in many texts and classes incorrectly. It's taught as a "down then back up" but in real, normal speed conversation, just sounds like a slightly lower pitch. Unless of course you have certain combinations like two third tones in a row.

jhanschoo 7y ago
Yeah, there really isn't time to pronounce a down-then-back-up in casual speech.

jcampbell1 7y ago

I built a little tool to help with tone pairs. There are vocab sets to explore all the combinations and a listening exercise. There is a huge jump from knowing the 4 tones from a pinyin chart and listening to full sentences. Learning the flavor of the 16 (19?) combinations is a great stepping stone. https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-tones-learn-the-right-way-with-tone-pairs.php https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-tones-learn-the-right-way-...

yomly 7y ago
You're the best - I was just thinking that something with live vocab would be useful

GordonS 7y ago

> Focus on shortening the tones you sound (while staying accurate) and focus on combining tones. I think this is good advice. When I first started learning mandarin, I really emphasised the tones, I guess because my untrained ear found it difficult to distinguish between them, and also because I thought people might understand me better. But the first time I went to China, it was immediately obvious that people had a hard time understanding my (then rudimentary) mandarin, which I believe was in large part because of the over-exaggerated way I was using tones. In the 3 weeks I spent in China, my understanding and usage of the tones came on tremendously - way more than it ever could have if I wasn't immersion in the language. Your ear does need to kind of train before you hear and understand tones at a more intuitive level. To anyone learning Chinese, my advice would be to get yourself out there, even if it's just for a short time.

natch 7y ago

>there are only 4 tones 5

yomly 7y ago
I guess you're right - I don't know if emphasis placed on this has changed over the years but the neutral tone was always a bit of an after thought/edge case when I was taught. Though I also wouldn't really consider my formal Mandarin education to be particularly rigorous or thorough...

jhanschoo 7y ago

I'd like to add that moving from sterile classroom Mandarin to irl Mandarin, you'll notice that 1. You may realize that the tones are realized differently in a variety of ways depending on context, speaker, etc. 2. Just as you can parse a different accent, native speakers can still figure out what you're trying to say if your tones are slightly whack. After all, tonal information in Mandarin is lost when sung.