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At what salary? Do any of the people qualified to be software engineers at apple work at google or Facebook, or in universities, or as consultants or entreprene

by geebee 7y ago

At what salary? Do any of the people qualified to be software engineers at apple work at google or Facebook, or in universities, or as consultants or entrepreneurs? Do any of them leave the pipeline earlier to become lawyers, physicians or get MBAs? If they can’t hire enough at market rate, then that’s the narkets answer. I see no reason to create a shadow immigration system run through apple’s HR department to help them escape the realities of the market. At minimum wage I’m sure there’s be lots of demand for talented engineers but vert lie supply. At a mil a year demand would fall considerably but supply would sure rise. So again. At what salary?

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
It's not a shadow immigration system. It's an explicit, intentional aspect of US immigration policy that you're allowed to recruit skilled people from abroad if you can't fill your staff with Americans hired at market rate.
- geebee 7y ago
  It’s a system that allows corporation to decide who is allowed into the us and the circumstances under which they are allowed to remain. A free person could decide not to put up with whiteboard tech interviews, not work on an “agile” team, not program in JavaScript, not work in an open office, and still legally remain in the US. They might have to pass on certain jobs, which is fine. An employer should largely set the terms under which an employee will join and remain in a job, as long as the employee is free to quit. I don’t think an employer should set the terms under which an employee will legally enter and remain in the United States, though I certainly can see why they would find this power appealing and lucrative. I call it a shadow system because it is deeply dishonest, corrupt, and manipulative, and makes decisions about residency and path to citizenship under the cloak of corporate HR secrecy
geofft 7y ago
But this concept of "market rate" itself depends on the immigration system, which artificially restricts supply. In a genuinely free market, with no immigration system ("shadow" or otherwise - but both are part of the same immigration system), you would find lots of engineers willing to work at what we'd consider a modest salary in the US. The "realities of the market" are that part of why Apple engineering salaries are what they are is because of how national borders got drawn. Had California been an independent country without an open border with the rest of the US, salaries in Silicon Valley would be significantly higher, and people would be saying that "the market" set this rate. If we got rid of immigration restrictions entirely, which are certainly government interference in the free market, we'd get closer to seeing the actual market rate.
- geebee 7y ago
  Good points, I tend to agree. It is difficult to know what sort of market would emerge. I’m not convinced that engineer salaries would drop, since I think this could 1) spark a massive amount of economic growth and 2) vastly expanded the choices available to talented people both in and outside engineering (I wouldn’t assume all those talented people on tech visas would remain engineers or even study engineering in the first place if they had greater freedom of choice and movement) For now I think the guiding principle should be that immigrants should be free to participate freely in the labor market as free and full members of society, not restricted by corporations in what fields to study, what jobs to work, what salaries to accept, or what locations to live in, as a condition of living and working in the US. Interestingly I think people can have very different opinions about the general level of immigration while agreeing strongly on this principle.
TuringNYC 7y ago
Isn't the ideal thing here to let employers compete with higher and higher salaries for visas rather than silly things like luck-lotteries or country-of-origin? This ensure that the smartest foreigners come here, and stay here. This also ensures that we attract high quality talent. It removes the uncertainty immigrants face (and that companies face.)

by geebee 7y ago

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

It's not a shadow immigration system. It's an explicit, intentional aspect of US immigration policy that you're allowed to recruit skilled people from abroad if you can't fill your staff with Americans hired at market rate.

geebee 7y ago
It’s a system that allows corporation to decide who is allowed into the us and the circumstances under which they are allowed to remain. A free person could decide not to put up with whiteboard tech interviews, not work on an “agile” team, not program in JavaScript, not work in an open office, and still legally remain in the US. They might have to pass on certain jobs, which is fine. An employer should largely set the terms under which an employee will join and remain in a job, as long as the employee is free to quit. I don’t think an employer should set the terms under which an employee will legally enter and remain in the United States, though I certainly can see why they would find this power appealing and lucrative. I call it a shadow system because it is deeply dishonest, corrupt, and manipulative, and makes decisions about residency and path to citizenship under the cloak of corporate HR secrecy

geofft 7y ago

But this concept of "market rate" itself depends on the immigration system, which artificially restricts supply. In a genuinely free market, with no immigration system ("shadow" or otherwise - but both are part of the same immigration system), you would find lots of engineers willing to work at what we'd consider a modest salary in the US. The "realities of the market" are that part of why Apple engineering salaries are what they are is because of how national borders got drawn. Had California been an independent country without an open border with the rest of the US, salaries in Silicon Valley would be significantly higher, and people would be saying that "the market" set this rate. If we got rid of immigration restrictions entirely, which are certainly government interference in the free market, we'd get closer to seeing the actual market rate.

geebee 7y ago
Good points, I tend to agree. It is difficult to know what sort of market would emerge. I’m not convinced that engineer salaries would drop, since I think this could 1) spark a massive amount of economic growth and 2) vastly expanded the choices available to talented people both in and outside engineering (I wouldn’t assume all those talented people on tech visas would remain engineers or even study engineering in the first place if they had greater freedom of choice and movement) For now I think the guiding principle should be that immigrants should be free to participate freely in the labor market as free and full members of society, not restricted by corporations in what fields to study, what jobs to work, what salaries to accept, or what locations to live in, as a condition of living and working in the US. Interestingly I think people can have very different opinions about the general level of immigration while agreeing strongly on this principle.

TuringNYC 7y ago

Isn't the ideal thing here to let employers compete with higher and higher salaries for visas rather than silly things like luck-lotteries or country-of-origin? This ensure that the smartest foreigners come here, and stay here. This also ensures that we attract high quality talent. It removes the uncertainty immigrants face (and that companies face.)