8 ms·

Hire an American.

downvoteme1 7y ago
That attempt was does at the interview stage. Nobody wants to hire a foreigner and then spend 6k for their initial H1B, each subsequent renewal and then spend an additional 10k on the green card process.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  Of course the company wants to spend money for the visa application and maybe the Green Card. The purpose behind all that is to hire employees that will not negotiate as hard for higher salaries because they want to immigrate and are not encumbered by student loans. Besides, while they are on H1-B they are chained to their jobs and cannot easily leave. The investment is easily recovered.
  - downvoteme1 7y ago
    You are counteracting your point. Yes an employee on H1 will not negotiate for higher salaries as they can be laid off and sent packing . However these ads are for green cards. So by filling their green card, Apple, Google and others are setting their employees free. Once they get a green card, they can effectively negotiate for higher salaries without risk of losing jobs and being sent back. If the intent was truly to fill positions with H1 then they should be laying off H1 employees every 3-5 years and rotate them with a fresh crop of H1 so that they never have to set their employees free.
    - pandaman 7y ago
      Green cards are not issued immediately after application, the process takes many years. During that process employee is even more vulnerable than a plain H1B w/o pending GC application. >If the intent was truly to fill positions with H1 then they should be laying off H1 employees every 3-5 years and rotate them with a fresh crop of H1 so that they never have to set their employees free. There are only 85000 H1B visas available per year (65K regular and additional 20K for people with masters degree from an American institution). That's not nearly enough to do what you propose.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    Green card holders have as much freedom to move jobs without worrying about their legal status as citizens. If they wanted to hire people they could maximally exploit why would they be sponsoring green cards at all?
- fountainofage 7y ago
  They do if the equivalently-skilled citizen won't do the job for less than that total cost.
esoterica 7y ago
Or hire the best person for the job regardless of race, gender, sexuality, religion or nationality.
- shiftpgdn 7y ago
  The best people are already available here. Companies just don't want to pay a fair salary or have someone that can leave at the drop of a hat.
  - la6470 7y ago
    Bullshit
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    All the best people are Americans?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - UncleMeat 7y ago
    H1B salaries are public. You can see that the major companies aren't paying them less.
    - dqv 7y ago
      Where? I can't find anything about salaries on the USCIS data hub. It's hard to trust a non-governmental data source since there is no penalty or fines for misreporting.
      - geofft 7y ago
        I think you can get this data from https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm with the caveats noted in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Condition_Application#Data_released_by_the_Department_of_Labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Condition_Application#Da... - this is data from the Department of Labor about "Labor Condition Applications" for H-1Bs. Most but not all of these turn into H-1B petitions, and some but not all of these are granted. There doesn't appear to be a public dataset of salaries of active H-1B visas. I'm looking at the data, I'll reply once I remember how to `import xlsxreader`.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
As mentioned downthread, the problem is that's not how big tech hiring pipelines work today. On the margin, Apple hires every qualified software developer it can find. If one of their engineers can't get a green card and is forced to leave, that doesn't mean they'll hire anyone they would have otherwise rejected.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Then why place the cryptic ad in the newspaper rather than actually post the job offering where it might be read and applied for by a US citizen? The only reason this makes sense is because they’re _afraid_ somebody qualified will actually apply.
  - jakear 7y ago
    The newspaper posting is a legal requirement of a company sponsoring a green card application. I'nm sure you'd be able to find these or similar positions online too.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    Does "the company website" count? https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=united-states-USA https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=united-states-U...
  - Klonoar 7y ago
    The comment you replied to, again, pointed this out: they already do that, and attempt to hire every able-bodied software engineer possible.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    They post the non-cryptic job listings online where people actually read them. The newspaper ad is just a legal contrivance.
  - zamalek 7y ago
    > The only reason this makes sense is because they’re _afraid_ somebody qualified will actually apply. The process isn't cheap and isn't easy. All things equal regarding the employee and candidate, why would they be afraid of finding a suitable replacement? They aren't afraid of finding someone qualified. They are afraid of finding someone who is not. They are not allowed to over-specify the job posting, and are not allowed to require something like years of proprietary knowledge. The employee and the candidate both have to be treated like fresh hires. Edit: for example, in the Jony Ive green card process, a fresh University graduate would be able to displace him as a candidate. All of his experience was proprietary (gained while working at Apple) and therefore ineligible for consideration.
ajross 7y ago
You genuinely think that Apple could just go out and hire a citizen for the position? Hiring in tech is hard, and at the highest levels like FAANG employers all the talent (anywhere!) is basically tapped out. That candidate is reasonably the only one who's going to fit. This is a spot where the libertarians are right. There's a space for protectionist regulation like this to preserve employment in industries that are being rapidly displaced or disrupted. But a mid-six-figure developer job at Apple Computer? Seriously? What human hardship is being salved by this policy? At best it's misguided government interference in a vibrant and very efficient market. At worst is just plain blind nationalism.
geofft 7y ago
You think that, after a company has had a worker doing good work for them for years, they should fire the worker and replace them with an unknown, possibly of lower quality? Why? Who does this benefit?
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  The citizen of the country in which is job is located... or at least currently located.
  - 1996 7y ago
    No, because it makes the output of this job less competitive. If you only consider the citizen directly involved in creating that output - maybe. But if that persons needs anything else created by other people in similar conditions (hired based on blood, not merits), that citizen also gets a bad deal: they paid more for something of a lesser quality. But hey, warm fuzzy feelings.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aware of these results, you'll update your beliefs accordingly - either that in-group favoritism is advantageous, or at the very least that we can't yet be sure getting rid of it is. [1] The Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html [2] Evolution of in-group favoritism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ [3] The Evolution of Ethnocentrism: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20Axelrod%20JCR%2006.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20... (journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470) - key quote: "When cooperation is especially costly to individuals, the authors show how ethnocentrism itself can be necessary to sustain cooperation."
      - 7y ago
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
If I understand correctly they want to retain someone, not hire someone.
noonespecial 7y ago
Or, (somewhat more controversially right now, I know) make that obviously talented and already contributing individual into an American.
rudyrigot 7y ago
It is magnitudes simpler to hire an American, immigration laws make sure of it. Any employer will readily hire qualified American candidates, they’re just fully aware that those qualified candidates won’t happen through this local newspaper channel for this kind of job. Americans who would apply to that specific ad would only do so to run interference, hence keeping their wording irrelevant. Why wouldn’t a qualified American candidate run interference then? One reason: most candidates for this kind of job are educated enough to be aware that the economy and the job market are not fixed-sum, so a foreigner being hired today doesn’t meaningfully change their own odds at being hired tomorrow. It’s kinda like saying that new graduates entering the workforce take jobs away from people in the workforce, when factually an economy grows with more people in it.

Hire an American.

That attempt was does at the interview stage. Nobody wants to hire a foreigner and then spend 6k for their initial H1B, each subsequent renewal and then spend an additional 10k on the green card process.

HarryHirsch 7y ago
Of course the company wants to spend money for the visa application and maybe the Green Card. The purpose behind all that is to hire employees that will not negotiate as hard for higher salaries because they want to immigrate and are not encumbered by student loans. Besides, while they are on H1-B they are chained to their jobs and cannot easily leave. The investment is easily recovered.
- downvoteme1 7y ago
  You are counteracting your point. Yes an employee on H1 will not negotiate for higher salaries as they can be laid off and sent packing . However these ads are for green cards. So by filling their green card, Apple, Google and others are setting their employees free. Once they get a green card, they can effectively negotiate for higher salaries without risk of losing jobs and being sent back. If the intent was truly to fill positions with H1 then they should be laying off H1 employees every 3-5 years and rotate them with a fresh crop of H1 so that they never have to set their employees free.
  - pandaman 7y ago
    Green cards are not issued immediately after application, the process takes many years. During that process employee is even more vulnerable than a plain H1B w/o pending GC application. >If the intent was truly to fill positions with H1 then they should be laying off H1 employees every 3-5 years and rotate them with a fresh crop of H1 so that they never have to set their employees free. There are only 85000 H1B visas available per year (65K regular and additional 20K for people with masters degree from an American institution). That's not nearly enough to do what you propose.
- esoterica 7y ago
  Green card holders have as much freedom to move jobs without worrying about their legal status as citizens. If they wanted to hire people they could maximally exploit why would they be sponsoring green cards at all?
fountainofage 7y ago
They do if the equivalently-skilled citizen won't do the job for less than that total cost.

esoterica 7y ago

Or hire the best person for the job regardless of race, gender, sexuality, religion or nationality.

shiftpgdn 7y ago
The best people are already available here. Companies just don't want to pay a fair salary or have someone that can leave at the drop of a hat.
- la6470 7y ago
  Bullshit
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  All the best people are Americans?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  H1B salaries are public. You can see that the major companies aren't paying them less.
  - dqv 7y ago
    Where? I can't find anything about salaries on the USCIS data hub. It's hard to trust a non-governmental data source since there is no penalty or fines for misreporting.
    - geofft 7y ago
      I think you can get this data from https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm with the caveats noted in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Condition_Application#Data_released_by_the_Department_of_Labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Condition_Application#Da... - this is data from the Department of Labor about "Labor Condition Applications" for H-1Bs. Most but not all of these turn into H-1B petitions, and some but not all of these are granted. There doesn't appear to be a public dataset of salaries of active H-1B visas. I'm looking at the data, I'll reply once I remember how to `import xlsxreader`.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

As mentioned downthread, the problem is that's not how big tech hiring pipelines work today. On the margin, Apple hires every qualified software developer it can find. If one of their engineers can't get a green card and is forced to leave, that doesn't mean they'll hire anyone they would have otherwise rejected.

commandlinefan 7y ago
Then why place the cryptic ad in the newspaper rather than actually post the job offering where it might be read and applied for by a US citizen? The only reason this makes sense is because they’re _afraid_ somebody qualified will actually apply.
- jakear 7y ago
  The newspaper posting is a legal requirement of a company sponsoring a green card application. I'nm sure you'd be able to find these or similar positions online too.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Does "the company website" count? https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=united-states-USA https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=united-states-U...
- Klonoar 7y ago
  The comment you replied to, again, pointed this out: they already do that, and attempt to hire every able-bodied software engineer possible.
- esoterica 7y ago
  They post the non-cryptic job listings online where people actually read them. The newspaper ad is just a legal contrivance.
- zamalek 7y ago
  > The only reason this makes sense is because they’re _afraid_ somebody qualified will actually apply. The process isn't cheap and isn't easy. All things equal regarding the employee and candidate, why would they be afraid of finding a suitable replacement? They aren't afraid of finding someone qualified. They are afraid of finding someone who is not. They are not allowed to over-specify the job posting, and are not allowed to require something like years of proprietary knowledge. The employee and the candidate both have to be treated like fresh hires. Edit: for example, in the Jony Ive green card process, a fresh University graduate would be able to displace him as a candidate. All of his experience was proprietary (gained while working at Apple) and therefore ineligible for consideration.

ajross 7y ago

You genuinely think that Apple could just go out and hire a citizen for the position? Hiring in tech is hard, and at the highest levels like FAANG employers all the talent (anywhere!) is basically tapped out. That candidate is reasonably the only one who's going to fit. This is a spot where the libertarians are right. There's a space for protectionist regulation like this to preserve employment in industries that are being rapidly displaced or disrupted. But a mid-six-figure developer job at Apple Computer? Seriously? What human hardship is being salved by this policy? At best it's misguided government interference in a vibrant and very efficient market. At worst is just plain blind nationalism.

geofft 7y ago

You think that, after a company has had a worker doing good work for them for years, they should fire the worker and replace them with an unknown, possibly of lower quality? Why? Who does this benefit?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
The citizen of the country in which is job is located... or at least currently located.
- 1996 7y ago
  No, because it makes the output of this job less competitive. If you only consider the citizen directly involved in creating that output - maybe. But if that persons needs anything else created by other people in similar conditions (hired based on blood, not merits), that citizen also gets a bad deal: they paid more for something of a lesser quality. But hey, warm fuzzy feelings.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aware of these results, you'll update your beliefs accordingly - either that in-group favoritism is advantageous, or at the very least that we can't yet be sure getting rid of it is. [1] The Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html [2] Evolution of in-group favoritism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ [3] The Evolution of Ethnocentrism: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20Axelrod%20JCR%2006.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20... (journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470) - key quote: "When cooperation is especially costly to individuals, the authors show how ethnocentrism itself can be necessary to sustain cooperation."
    - 7y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

If I understand correctly they want to retain someone, not hire someone.

noonespecial 7y ago

Or, (somewhat more controversially right now, I know) make that obviously talented and already contributing individual into an American.

rudyrigot 7y ago

It is magnitudes simpler to hire an American, immigration laws make sure of it. Any employer will readily hire qualified American candidates, they’re just fully aware that those qualified candidates won’t happen through this local newspaper channel for this kind of job. Americans who would apply to that specific ad would only do so to run interference, hence keeping their wording irrelevant. Why wouldn’t a qualified American candidate run interference then? One reason: most candidates for this kind of job are educated enough to be aware that the economy and the job market are not fixed-sum, so a foreigner being hired today doesn’t meaningfully change their own odds at being hired tomorrow. It’s kinda like saying that new graduates entering the workforce take jobs away from people in the workforce, when factually an economy grows with more people in it.