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> For math textbooks, being “open source” doesn’t really add much value (compared to just free) That is wrong. For one thing it allows someone to take up a pr

> For math textbooks, being “open source” doesn’t really add much value (compared to just free) That is wrong. For one thing it allows someone to take up a project if the original author dies. > I would urge people to not hesitate to pirate PDFs of good, non-free textbooks if you can’t afford them or find them too much of a financial burden That is also wrong. Authors spend a significant part of their lives on a book and are entitled to do with it as they like. The best way to get free access to a for-cost text is to use your library. (BTW, I write books that are freely distributed.)

buzzkillington 7y ago
The price of textbooks is also wrong. If people could make a living from writing textbooks in 1970 that would be the equivalent of $30 today I don't see what's changed that they need to charge $300 for them.
- Yajirobe 7y ago
  You don't see what's changed since 1970s?
  - mavhc 7y ago
    Good point, a reduction in cost of typesetting, and transferring of information during production of books should mean the costs have gone down
  - tzs 7y ago
    In 1976 I bought copies of Apostol's "Calculus" for $19 for each volume new at the Caltech bookstore. These were published by Wiley. That was for the 2nd edition of Volume 1, which came out in 1967, and for the 2nd edition of Volume 2, which came out in 1969. $19 in 1976 dollars is about $86 in 2019 dollars. Apostol's "Calculus" is still available from Wiley, and is still used in a few schools for their proof-oriented calculus courses (Caltech, MIT, Stanford, for example). Wiley wants $283.95 for the current edition of each volume. Guess what edition they are up to now? The answer is the 2nd edition, from 1967 for Volume 1 and 1969 for Volume 2. They haven't even given them a new cover design in the last 50 years as far as I can tell. The design on the new copies today are the same as on my 1976 copies. All they've changed there is lightening the shade of the background. (NOTE: this means that there is no downside to buying the international paperback edition. Sometimes publishers keep the international edition a few years behind the American edition, so for frequently revised textbooks the international edition might not match your course. Not a problem with these books. The international editions can be found for around $20 per volume, including shipping. Abebooks is a good place for this). So...what changed since the 1970s to explain the $283.95 Wiley wants for these books instead of the around $86 we might expect based on the 1976 price? The other big name in proof-oriented introductions to calculus, Spivak's "Calculus" was $70 when I bought a copy of the third edition in 2004. That one has had one new edition since then, which is currently $100. $70 in 2004 would be about $95 in today's dollars which is close enough to $100 that I can believe that one's price is explained by inflation plus revision costs for a new edition. But for Apostol, where it's all just reprints of 50 year old books, I can't see anything other than "because we can" to explain the price.
  - buzzkillington 7y ago
    The international additions cost less than $30 and are profitable enough to print. So what's changed since the 1970s is that the market has been captured and book publishers can charge anything they want for books because you fail the class if you don't have the latest book with the one time use code for the exercises on the website.
oefrha 7y ago
> it allows someone to take up a project if the original author dies. Sure, in theory. In practice I’ve yet to hear of a worthwhile monograph in mathematics written that way. > The best way to get free access to a for-cost text is to use your library. Not all libraries stock for-cost texts of advanced mathematics. Not all people, including gifted high schoolers, live anywhere close to a library. These are especially true in poorer countries. When people make remarks like yours underprivileged demographics always seem to be forgotten. Anyway, readers can do with the Internet as they like, and sorry if you’re offended.
- fortran77 7y ago
  > In practice I’ve yet to hear of a worthwhile monograph in mathematics written that way. Look at new editions of "Calculus Made Easy". It was re-written from infinitesimals to limits
einpoklum 7y ago
> and are entitled to do with it as they like. Of course they are. But we are entitled to do the same with the copies of it.
- SteveGoob 7y ago
  > ...we are entitled to do the same with the copies of it. No, that's not how copyright works.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    Copyright was a conspiracy of English book printers in the 18th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne It's amazing that some people consider it legitimate today still.
generationP 7y ago
> That is wrong. For one thing it allows someone to take up a project if the original author dies. I've also heard that it also makes it easier to get it professionally printed and bound if one so desires, as printing services are otherwise wary of infringing copyrights.

buzzkillington 7y ago

The price of textbooks is also wrong. If people could make a living from writing textbooks in 1970 that would be the equivalent of $30 today I don't see what's changed that they need to charge $300 for them.

Yajirobe 7y ago
You don't see what's changed since 1970s?
- mavhc 7y ago
  Good point, a reduction in cost of typesetting, and transferring of information during production of books should mean the costs have gone down
- tzs 7y ago
  In 1976 I bought copies of Apostol's "Calculus" for $19 for each volume new at the Caltech bookstore. These were published by Wiley. That was for the 2nd edition of Volume 1, which came out in 1967, and for the 2nd edition of Volume 2, which came out in 1969. $19 in 1976 dollars is about $86 in 2019 dollars. Apostol's "Calculus" is still available from Wiley, and is still used in a few schools for their proof-oriented calculus courses (Caltech, MIT, Stanford, for example). Wiley wants $283.95 for the current edition of each volume. Guess what edition they are up to now? The answer is the 2nd edition, from 1967 for Volume 1 and 1969 for Volume 2. They haven't even given them a new cover design in the last 50 years as far as I can tell. The design on the new copies today are the same as on my 1976 copies. All they've changed there is lightening the shade of the background. (NOTE: this means that there is no downside to buying the international paperback edition. Sometimes publishers keep the international edition a few years behind the American edition, so for frequently revised textbooks the international edition might not match your course. Not a problem with these books. The international editions can be found for around $20 per volume, including shipping. Abebooks is a good place for this). So...what changed since the 1970s to explain the $283.95 Wiley wants for these books instead of the around $86 we might expect based on the 1976 price? The other big name in proof-oriented introductions to calculus, Spivak's "Calculus" was $70 when I bought a copy of the third edition in 2004. That one has had one new edition since then, which is currently $100. $70 in 2004 would be about $95 in today's dollars which is close enough to $100 that I can believe that one's price is explained by inflation plus revision costs for a new edition. But for Apostol, where it's all just reprints of 50 year old books, I can't see anything other than "because we can" to explain the price.
- buzzkillington 7y ago
  The international additions cost less than $30 and are profitable enough to print. So what's changed since the 1970s is that the market has been captured and book publishers can charge anything they want for books because you fail the class if you don't have the latest book with the one time use code for the exercises on the website.

oefrha 7y ago

> it allows someone to take up a project if the original author dies. Sure, in theory. In practice I’ve yet to hear of a worthwhile monograph in mathematics written that way. > The best way to get free access to a for-cost text is to use your library. Not all libraries stock for-cost texts of advanced mathematics. Not all people, including gifted high schoolers, live anywhere close to a library. These are especially true in poorer countries. When people make remarks like yours underprivileged demographics always seem to be forgotten. Anyway, readers can do with the Internet as they like, and sorry if you’re offended.

fortran77 7y ago
> In practice I’ve yet to hear of a worthwhile monograph in mathematics written that way. Look at new editions of "Calculus Made Easy". It was re-written from infinitesimals to limits

einpoklum 7y ago

> and are entitled to do with it as they like. Of course they are. But we are entitled to do the same with the copies of it.

SteveGoob 7y ago
> ...we are entitled to do the same with the copies of it. No, that's not how copyright works.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  Copyright was a conspiracy of English book printers in the 18th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne It's amazing that some people consider it legitimate today still.

generationP 7y ago

> That is wrong. For one thing it allows someone to take up a project if the original author dies. I've also heard that it also makes it easier to get it professionally printed and bound if one so desires, as printing services are otherwise wary of infringing copyrights.