4 ms·

Buy ethically: Buy sweatshop

11 points by johndcook 16y ago

noonespecial 16y ago
Thy to remember that "sweatshop" is not a binary function. The choice is not sweatshop or not-sweatshop, but instead a continuum of working conditions, often present in the same factory. It may not be practical to demand western wages for these workers but we shouldn't support factories that beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either.
- sixtofour 16y ago
  "... we shouldn't support factories that beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either." I agree, but how do we tell the difference between one tshirt or the other, and its associated work conditions?
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >agree, but how do we tell the difference between one tshirt or the other, and its associated work conditions? The international fairtrade mark is a good way of telling the difference ... http://fairtrade.net/about_fairtrade.0.html http://fairtrade.net/about_fairtrade.0.html
    - CWuestefeld 16y ago
      The point of the OP was that fairtrade's standards don't make sense. So why look for their mark?
      - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
        Certified fairtrade standards do indicate that which the parent was asking to be shown, that factories have safe and ethical working practices. If you buy fairtrade certified goods then you know (as much as one can, even if you were to inspect the factory yourself) that they don't "beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either". See some of the assessed standards (certification is by physically present assessors who visit at least once per year except in historically exemplary establishments where visits may be reduced) - http://fairtrade.net/653.0.html http://fairtrade.net/653.0.html, in particular http://fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/standards/documents/04-10_EN_Generic_Fairtrade_Standard_HL_Aug_2009_EN_amended_version_04-10.pdf http://fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/stan... are the generic H&S standards, see for example Section 1.6. Here's another reason to look for the mark, http://fairtrade.net/single_view1.0.html?&cHash=18ecb39c42&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=187 http://fairtrade.net/single_view1.0.html?&cHash=18ecb39c... "ILO and Kuapa Kokoo partner to combat child labour in cocoa" ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6575713.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6575713.stm "Labouring for chocolate" BBC report on "child slavery" in cocoa plantations. Of course if you think kids are better off slaving away to keep more of the money you spend on chocolate further up the supply chain, rather than being in school, then don't look for the Fairtrade mark.
  - marquis 16y ago
    Either research the background of your products or purchase directly from known fair-trade/fair-conditions producers. Some good tips here: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-buying-sweatshop-free-clothing.htm http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-buying-sweatsh... I do agree with the premise that what we consider a 'sweatshop' may actually just be low wages in comparison to OECD wages. What is critical as a consumer is to do what you can to support genuine means of production where slavery/worker abuse is not tolerated. For example start with chocolate: I'll only purchase fair-trade chocolate due to the known conditions where Nestle/other cocoa purchasers support child slavery in West Africa. There are plenty of options for chocolate purchase in grocery stores and boutiques. I'm not much of a mainstream consumer anyway (haven't been to McDonalds since I was a student for example) though I'm sure I support undeserving conditions with my spending - as such I'd love to see a mobile app that gives me an overview of what I'm buying. And yes, a quick google shows this Free2Work app: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406044086?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406044086?mt=8 which I'll be checking out though it only seems to cover major brands.
  - mtrn 16y ago
    No, the shirt alone won't tell you anything. But if really want to know, you can and will know.
- mtrn 16y ago
  For a lot of sweatshops, e.g. in Bangladesh producing loads of textiles for european discounters, it would be a progress, if they would work, say 9 hours (with a 164M population, it should be possible to work shifts, too, if the demand is really that high).
TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago
This topic seems to coincide with the recent findings of a culture living in Peru that has not been contacted as of yet. The standard arguments are that we will bring them "better" technology so they can make their lives easier. Of course, we also bring in the health argument and use that excuse because they will be healthier. What natives living in Peru and sweatshops have in common are that we are trying to force a Westernized way of living regardless what those very people say. In sweatshops, many have denounced them as bad conditions. Yeah, we had sweatshops in the USA, and child labor up until 1938, when the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed. Sweatshops also dont have USA minimum wage attached... Well DUH. They aren't in the USA specifically because US labor costs too damn much. Even when automotive first went to Mexico, they later left to China because.... it cost too much! (Aside the drug cartels and lack of US immigration laws, Mexico is doing worse. But that's for another essay.) It all goes back to quality of standards we project on others. Wether it is wealth accumulation, healthcare, living, electricity/clean water, and services, we project what we expect others to have. Of course they don't have it. However in the case of sweatshops, the people will assemble once they have enough income and start their own companies. They will grease the wheel of commerce, and we're providing the bootstrap.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
EddieC on that page (http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/buy-ethically:-buy-sweatshop/ http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/buy-ethically:-b...) says: >No, it means that without the distortions to incentives FairTrade and the like introduce, the market signals to all the most effective allocations of land, labour and capital. The thing is, and why we need fair trade, that the market signals that human lives are worth nearly nothing because there are a lot of them. In effect a purely market lead system would have (has!) people working in dangerous conditions without safety equipment (like the workers sprayed with pesticides in non-fairtrade banana plantations leaving them sick and infertile) until the supply of people runs low enough to make a sufficient price difference. If you want to live in that sort of world, a world that ignores child slavery in Western Africa because it produces cheaper cocoa beans for example, then I really have nothing but contempt for you. Fairtrade doesn't produce oversupply, it doesn't lock people in - how can sufficient funds to access healthcare, education and approach crop diversity be locking people in? It's a well put argument that nonetheless is wanting IMO, it's oozing with malevolence and contempt for humanity.

11 points by johndcook 16y ago

Thy to remember that "sweatshop" is not a binary function. The choice is not sweatshop or not-sweatshop, but instead a continuum of working conditions, often present in the same factory. It may not be practical to demand western wages for these workers but we shouldn't support factories that beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either.

sixtofour 16y ago
"... we shouldn't support factories that beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either." I agree, but how do we tell the difference between one tshirt or the other, and its associated work conditions?
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >agree, but how do we tell the difference between one tshirt or the other, and its associated work conditions? The international fairtrade mark is a good way of telling the difference ... http://fairtrade.net/about_fairtrade.0.html http://fairtrade.net/about_fairtrade.0.html
  - CWuestefeld 16y ago
    The point of the OP was that fairtrade's standards don't make sense. So why look for their mark?
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      Certified fairtrade standards do indicate that which the parent was asking to be shown, that factories have safe and ethical working practices. If you buy fairtrade certified goods then you know (as much as one can, even if you were to inspect the factory yourself) that they don't "beat the workers or subject them to environments that rapidly cause sickness and death either". See some of the assessed standards (certification is by physically present assessors who visit at least once per year except in historically exemplary establishments where visits may be reduced) - http://fairtrade.net/653.0.html http://fairtrade.net/653.0.html, in particular http://fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/standards/documents/04-10_EN_Generic_Fairtrade_Standard_HL_Aug_2009_EN_amended_version_04-10.pdf http://fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/stan... are the generic H&S standards, see for example Section 1.6. Here's another reason to look for the mark, http://fairtrade.net/single_view1.0.html?&cHash=18ecb39c42&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=187 http://fairtrade.net/single_view1.0.html?&cHash=18ecb39c... "ILO and Kuapa Kokoo partner to combat child labour in cocoa" ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6575713.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6575713.stm "Labouring for chocolate" BBC report on "child slavery" in cocoa plantations. Of course if you think kids are better off slaving away to keep more of the money you spend on chocolate further up the supply chain, rather than being in school, then don't look for the Fairtrade mark.
- marquis 16y ago
  Either research the background of your products or purchase directly from known fair-trade/fair-conditions producers. Some good tips here: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-buying-sweatshop-free-clothing.htm http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-buying-sweatsh... I do agree with the premise that what we consider a 'sweatshop' may actually just be low wages in comparison to OECD wages. What is critical as a consumer is to do what you can to support genuine means of production where slavery/worker abuse is not tolerated. For example start with chocolate: I'll only purchase fair-trade chocolate due to the known conditions where Nestle/other cocoa purchasers support child slavery in West Africa. There are plenty of options for chocolate purchase in grocery stores and boutiques. I'm not much of a mainstream consumer anyway (haven't been to McDonalds since I was a student for example) though I'm sure I support undeserving conditions with my spending - as such I'd love to see a mobile app that gives me an overview of what I'm buying. And yes, a quick google shows this Free2Work app: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406044086?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406044086?mt=8 which I'll be checking out though it only seems to cover major brands.
- mtrn 16y ago
  No, the shirt alone won't tell you anything. But if really want to know, you can and will know.
mtrn 16y ago
For a lot of sweatshops, e.g. in Bangladesh producing loads of textiles for european discounters, it would be a progress, if they would work, say 9 hours (with a 164M population, it should be possible to work shifts, too, if the demand is really that high).

TheAmazingIdiot 16y ago

This topic seems to coincide with the recent findings of a culture living in Peru that has not been contacted as of yet. The standard arguments are that we will bring them "better" technology so they can make their lives easier. Of course, we also bring in the health argument and use that excuse because they will be healthier. What natives living in Peru and sweatshops have in common are that we are trying to force a Westernized way of living regardless what those very people say. In sweatshops, many have denounced them as bad conditions. Yeah, we had sweatshops in the USA, and child labor up until 1938, when the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed. Sweatshops also dont have USA minimum wage attached... Well DUH. They aren't in the USA specifically because US labor costs too damn much. Even when automotive first went to Mexico, they later left to China because.... it cost too much! (Aside the drug cartels and lack of US immigration laws, Mexico is doing worse. But that's for another essay.) It all goes back to quality of standards we project on others. Wether it is wealth accumulation, healthcare, living, electricity/clean water, and services, we project what we expect others to have. Of course they don't have it. However in the case of sweatshops, the people will assemble once they have enough income and start their own companies. They will grease the wheel of commerce, and we're providing the bootstrap.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

EddieC on that page (http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/buy-ethically:-buy-sweatshop/ http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/buy-ethically:-b...) says: >No, it means that without the distortions to incentives FairTrade and the like introduce, the market signals to all the most effective allocations of land, labour and capital. The thing is, and why we need fair trade, that the market signals that human lives are worth nearly nothing because there are a lot of them. In effect a purely market lead system would have (has!) people working in dangerous conditions without safety equipment (like the workers sprayed with pesticides in non-fairtrade banana plantations leaving them sick and infertile) until the supply of people runs low enough to make a sufficient price difference. If you want to live in that sort of world, a world that ignores child slavery in Western Africa because it produces cheaper cocoa beans for example, then I really have nothing but contempt for you. Fairtrade doesn't produce oversupply, it doesn't lock people in - how can sufficient funds to access healthcare, education and approach crop diversity be locking people in? It's a well put argument that nonetheless is wanting IMO, it's oozing with malevolence and contempt for humanity.