4 ms·

Both things can be true: * There are some rotten things at the FBI that should be fixed. * Russians interfered with our elections in 2016, and will keep attem

by davidw 7y ago

Both things can be true: * There are some rotten things at the FBI that should be fixed. * Russians interfered with our elections in 2016, and will keep attempting to do so. I don't get why he's so in the tank for Russia.

sasasassy 7y ago
Is there any reason whatsoever to think Russia interfered? I mean outside the bull of "Russian person or company bought ads on Facebook", because if that counts I think half the world interfered in the election.
- davidw 7y ago
  Because it has been thoroughly documented? https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-government-contact-timeline-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-govern... Here's another one about something much smaller and more local than the election: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelligence-committee-hearing-2017-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelli... They were trying to get Americans to fight in the streets, and organized a protest and counter protest!
- wl 7y ago
  I think you're asking a subtly different question, namely: Did Russian efforts to influence the election materially affect the outcome?
  - davidw 7y ago
    Yeah, and I don't think anyone can ever have a definitive answer for that one.
- zzzeek 7y ago
  how about they hacked into private servers, stole private emails, carefully curated the most embarrassing segments, then released them throughout the internet? does that count? There are many reasons and they are nicely documented at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
  - 867567838694 7y ago
    You mean the DNC hack where they wouldn't let the FBI investigate and their own investigate company blamed it on the Russians but they wouldn't share the evidence? These were all leaks from inside.
    - zzzeek 7y ago
      So the Russians did nothing, but there is a vast conspiracy by virtually the entire Federal government from top (oh wait, not quite the top) to bottom plus all media outlets to make it look like they did, and all 10000 federal employees who are in on it are so good at keeping it entirely a secret that there has been zero evidence whatsoever for such a claim leaked.
- black6 7y ago
  From a nation-state perspective I would hope they attempt to interfere in the elections of their national rivals in order to eke out an advantage on the global playing field, just as I expect my own government to be doing the same.
  - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
    I can't reconcile that with America's stated goal of promoting democracy in those same countries.
    - beachwood23 7y ago
      Can you reconcile this with our history of meddling in other country's elections? From 2017, we influenced the French election: http://www.theamericanmirror.com/obama-meddles-french-election-pushes-macron-video/ http://www.theamericanmirror.com/obama-meddles-french-electi... American involvement in other other countries's leadership is so prevalent that there is a Wikipedia page for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
      - davidw 7y ago
        Endorsing a candidate is not "meddling in elections". Anyone trying to sell that line is not on the level. There certainly have been plenty of instances of the US doing very bad things globally (your second link is very much legit), but I guess the stated goal of spreading democracy is better than whatever straight up authoritarian states like Russia are peddling, even if it can be frustrating when things fail to live up to the ideal. I think you can certainly argue for less US involvement abroad and still view Russia's actions in a very, very poor light.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume you're asking this in good faith. The answer is a resounding "yes". 1. On social media, the IRA (Russia's Internet Research Agency) posed as Americans on Twitter and Facebook, and was ordered to amplify and provoke political and social discord in the United States. They organized political rallies (including "Blue Lives Matter") and fake Facebook groups, complete with convenient memes, unwittingly shared by people like Donald Trump Jr., Kellyanne Conway, Michael Flynn, etc. 2. The GRU hacked into email accounts owned by volunteers and employees of the Clinton campaign. They also hacked into the DNC and DCCC and released the stolen emails and documents to Wikileaks. 3. There were 140 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian government officials around the 2016 election. I suggest you read the Mueller report if you're actually curious about this.
yters 7y ago
Is the supposed evidence of Russian interference at all dependent on these false FBI claims?
- ABeeSea 7y ago
  No, all 17 intelligence agencies confirmed Russia meddled in the 2016 election. The Republican minority report from the House intelligence committee also agrees Russia meddled in the 2016 election.
  - 867567838694 7y ago
    There is a lot of bunk in that number considering the fact that only 4 of them are intelligence agencies and the context of the answer. That said, of course, Russia meddled in our election. The support Hillary and Trump not to get one elected but to promote a split in this country and we fell for it like morons!
  - dmix 7y ago
    I don't see the strategic value in denying it happened. It's pretty obvious. I think most people on the right who aren't in the hyper-partisan bandwagon would agree with that. We should be concerned if it did happened regardless of political ideology. It'd be much easier to focus efforts on simply discrediting how much it really mattered. Most reports said the Russians spent around $20M on ads which considering both sides campaigns had about a billion each, not to mention the invaluable endless free media coverage over two years most presidential elections take... you can draw your own conclusions.
    - davidw 7y ago
      > I don't see the strategic value in denying it happened. I It's about sowing doubt and creating a world where there are no 'facts', because then those who lie are on a level playing field with those who deal with the truth.
  - yters 7y ago
    My understanding, and I confess I haven't followed things very closely, is that the Russia meddling claim is somehow connected with the current impeachment of Trump. True? If so, does this report on the FBI at all relate to said impeachment? As an aside, I have absolutely no idea why Trump is being impeached. Every time I open Google News all the top headlines are "Impeach Trump!". But I never see anything about why exactly he is being impeached. Granted, I haven't really read any of these articles, more than just skimming, but I'd expect at least something in the title or summary that I see in Google News. Very bizarre thing going on. When Clinton was impeached it was very clear it was related to Monica Lewinsky and lying under oath. But regarding Trump, I mostly just see articles about who wants him impeached. Nothing about why. Anyone know the particular reason Trump is being impeached? What law he violated? UPDATE: I googled it, and someone claims he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden's son. Perhaps impeachable, but not obviously so. I guess that's why the reason is not more widely promoted, since on the face of it does not sound particularly egregious, compared to what other presidents have done.
doublement 7y ago
Indeed. I generally agree with Greenwald in who he targets for attack, but what he chooses to defend is too broad, to the point where I wonder if some self-deception is involved. If I recall correctly he was also defending Wikileaks against the charge that it timed its releases to hurt Hillary Clinton. Even if you agree with Wikileaks' general agenda, it's obvious they were timing things for maximum impact. It's the same with Russian interference. It's actually their job to interfere, and it would be easy for him to acknowledge that and still maintain his criticism of targets.
webboynews 7y ago
What's the point of bringing Russia here at all? Yes Russia interfered. So did Israel and China. What's your point?
datashow 7y ago
> Russians interfered with our elections in 2016 This line implies two totally different things and has been used by politicians and biased medias to mislead the public. One thing is Russians interfered the elections in 2016 by buying ads and spreading misinformation, which did happen. The other thing is Russians interfered the elections in 2016 by working with the Trump campaign. There is no evidence for this even after FBI violated many protocols in their investigation. One example of media spreading misinformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIkgWdAq3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIkgWdAq3Q
- zzzeek 7y ago
  the Trump campaign took the information from the DNC leak and ran with it at top speed. they benefited massively from it. "not working" with them would instead have meant they reported the efforts by Russian agents to meet with them to the FBI immediately, rather than actually meeting with them and asking for what illegally acquired dirt they had.

by davidw 7y ago

sasasassy 7y ago

Is there any reason whatsoever to think Russia interfered? I mean outside the bull of "Russian person or company bought ads on Facebook", because if that counts I think half the world interfered in the election.

davidw 7y ago
Because it has been thoroughly documented? https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-government-contact-timeline-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-russia-govern... Here's another one about something much smaller and more local than the election: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelligence-committee-hearing-2017-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intelli... They were trying to get Americans to fight in the streets, and organized a protest and counter protest!
wl 7y ago
I think you're asking a subtly different question, namely: Did Russian efforts to influence the election materially affect the outcome?
- davidw 7y ago
  Yeah, and I don't think anyone can ever have a definitive answer for that one.
zzzeek 7y ago
how about they hacked into private servers, stole private emails, carefully curated the most embarrassing segments, then released them throughout the internet? does that count? There are many reasons and they are nicely documented at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
- 867567838694 7y ago
  You mean the DNC hack where they wouldn't let the FBI investigate and their own investigate company blamed it on the Russians but they wouldn't share the evidence? These were all leaks from inside.
  - zzzeek 7y ago
    So the Russians did nothing, but there is a vast conspiracy by virtually the entire Federal government from top (oh wait, not quite the top) to bottom plus all media outlets to make it look like they did, and all 10000 federal employees who are in on it are so good at keeping it entirely a secret that there has been zero evidence whatsoever for such a claim leaked.
black6 7y ago
From a nation-state perspective I would hope they attempt to interfere in the elections of their national rivals in order to eke out an advantage on the global playing field, just as I expect my own government to be doing the same.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  I can't reconcile that with America's stated goal of promoting democracy in those same countries.
  - beachwood23 7y ago
    Can you reconcile this with our history of meddling in other country's elections? From 2017, we influenced the French election: http://www.theamericanmirror.com/obama-meddles-french-election-pushes-macron-video/ http://www.theamericanmirror.com/obama-meddles-french-electi... American involvement in other other countries's leadership is so prevalent that there is a Wikipedia page for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
    - davidw 7y ago
      Endorsing a candidate is not "meddling in elections". Anyone trying to sell that line is not on the level. There certainly have been plenty of instances of the US doing very bad things globally (your second link is very much legit), but I guess the stated goal of spreading democracy is better than whatever straight up authoritarian states like Russia are peddling, even if it can be frustrating when things fail to live up to the ideal. I think you can certainly argue for less US involvement abroad and still view Russia's actions in a very, very poor light.
the_gastropod 7y ago
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume you're asking this in good faith. The answer is a resounding "yes". 1. On social media, the IRA (Russia's Internet Research Agency) posed as Americans on Twitter and Facebook, and was ordered to amplify and provoke political and social discord in the United States. They organized political rallies (including "Blue Lives Matter") and fake Facebook groups, complete with convenient memes, unwittingly shared by people like Donald Trump Jr., Kellyanne Conway, Michael Flynn, etc. 2. The GRU hacked into email accounts owned by volunteers and employees of the Clinton campaign. They also hacked into the DNC and DCCC and released the stolen emails and documents to Wikileaks. 3. There were 140 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian government officials around the 2016 election. I suggest you read the Mueller report if you're actually curious about this.

yters 7y ago

Is the supposed evidence of Russian interference at all dependent on these false FBI claims?

ABeeSea 7y ago
No, all 17 intelligence agencies confirmed Russia meddled in the 2016 election. The Republican minority report from the House intelligence committee also agrees Russia meddled in the 2016 election.
- 867567838694 7y ago
  There is a lot of bunk in that number considering the fact that only 4 of them are intelligence agencies and the context of the answer. That said, of course, Russia meddled in our election. The support Hillary and Trump not to get one elected but to promote a split in this country and we fell for it like morons!
- dmix 7y ago
  I don't see the strategic value in denying it happened. It's pretty obvious. I think most people on the right who aren't in the hyper-partisan bandwagon would agree with that. We should be concerned if it did happened regardless of political ideology. It'd be much easier to focus efforts on simply discrediting how much it really mattered. Most reports said the Russians spent around $20M on ads which considering both sides campaigns had about a billion each, not to mention the invaluable endless free media coverage over two years most presidential elections take... you can draw your own conclusions.
  - davidw 7y ago
    > I don't see the strategic value in denying it happened. I It's about sowing doubt and creating a world where there are no 'facts', because then those who lie are on a level playing field with those who deal with the truth.
- yters 7y ago
  My understanding, and I confess I haven't followed things very closely, is that the Russia meddling claim is somehow connected with the current impeachment of Trump. True? If so, does this report on the FBI at all relate to said impeachment? As an aside, I have absolutely no idea why Trump is being impeached. Every time I open Google News all the top headlines are "Impeach Trump!". But I never see anything about why exactly he is being impeached. Granted, I haven't really read any of these articles, more than just skimming, but I'd expect at least something in the title or summary that I see in Google News. Very bizarre thing going on. When Clinton was impeached it was very clear it was related to Monica Lewinsky and lying under oath. But regarding Trump, I mostly just see articles about who wants him impeached. Nothing about why. Anyone know the particular reason Trump is being impeached? What law he violated? UPDATE: I googled it, and someone claims he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden's son. Perhaps impeachable, but not obviously so. I guess that's why the reason is not more widely promoted, since on the face of it does not sound particularly egregious, compared to what other presidents have done.

doublement 7y ago

Indeed. I generally agree with Greenwald in who he targets for attack, but what he chooses to defend is too broad, to the point where I wonder if some self-deception is involved. If I recall correctly he was also defending Wikileaks against the charge that it timed its releases to hurt Hillary Clinton. Even if you agree with Wikileaks' general agenda, it's obvious they were timing things for maximum impact. It's the same with Russian interference. It's actually their job to interfere, and it would be easy for him to acknowledge that and still maintain his criticism of targets.

webboynews 7y ago

What's the point of bringing Russia here at all? Yes Russia interfered. So did Israel and China. What's your point?

datashow 7y ago

> Russians interfered with our elections in 2016 This line implies two totally different things and has been used by politicians and biased medias to mislead the public. One thing is Russians interfered the elections in 2016 by buying ads and spreading misinformation, which did happen. The other thing is Russians interfered the elections in 2016 by working with the Trump campaign. There is no evidence for this even after FBI violated many protocols in their investigation. One example of media spreading misinformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIkgWdAq3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIkgWdAq3Q

zzzeek 7y ago
the Trump campaign took the information from the DNC leak and ran with it at top speed. they benefited massively from it. "not working" with them would instead have meant they reported the efforts by Russian agents to meet with them to the FBI immediately, rather than actually meeting with them and asking for what illegally acquired dirt they had.