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I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The p

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

sooheon 7y ago
What gives you this certainty?
- tomrod 7y ago
  Bayesian priors, I reckon.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?
    - tomrod 7y ago
      Fair critique, as the GP didn't say certainty but my response was pre-supposed. I would say that we don't have a well-founded, commonly known model linking air pollution and depression. However their confounding experience through poverty is accepted and easily understood.
      - sooheon 7y ago
        My bad, I read “confidence” and put “certainty” in their mouth. I can agree other already understood factors exist, and may confound the problem. But confounding != negation. And the health effects of air pollution are well understood and bad enough that denying the link from pollution -> depression is equivalent to denying link from bad health -> depression.
        tomrod 7y ago
        We agree on this point.
    - ailideex 7y ago
      There is opposing evidence?
      - sooheon 7y ago
        Multiple links to recent studies in the article, and a large body of work on the effects of pollution on health in general.
- c048 7y ago
  Because pinpointing the solution to complex problems to one, easily defined root cause has, in the past, always proven to be bullshit. Silver bullets, just like with code, do not exist for real life problems.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    There is no silver bullet in the study, they explicitly call it just a “link”. The straw man is in your mind.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  Because the medicalization of depression is a convenient way to avoid thinking about the fact that it is a prominent feature of the status quo, not some aberration. Pollution correlates with industrial manufacturing and warehouse work environments and crushing poverty that forces people to live in a manner consistent with economic efficiency rather than with human happiness and well-being. Long work hours and little money contribute to social isolation. Debt traps put people in situations in which they could not possibly ever claw their way out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24121465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24121465 > A meta-analysis of pooled odds ratios showed a significant relationship between debt and mental disorder (OR=3.24), depression (OR=2.77), suicide completion (OR=7.9), suicide completion or attempt (OR=5.76), problem drinking (OR=2.68), drug dependence (OR=8.57), neurotic disorder (OR=3.21) and psychotic disorders (OR=4.03). When are we going to start designing our economies around creating a healthy and enjoyable environment for humans to actually live in, and not arranging human lives around squeezing the greatest amount of economic efficiency out of them as possible? The way we make ourselves live is tantamount to animal abuse.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    I agree that depression is a serious and systemic problem, but I don't see why that invalidates medical inquiry into physical causes as well. We can study a problem from multiple angles, because we're merely trying to understand better. Everything you said about depression is bad, and 24/7 smog is also a bad thing which may lead to depression, one does not preclude the other from being factual.
    - aalleavitch 7y ago
      I don't disagree in principle with the idea that the physical aspects of/influences on depression are worth studying. I do, however, think the overall approach we are taking towards depression as a society is fundamentally backwards. We have a massive industry that is focused around producing psychiatric medication so that people can more effectively operate in the society we've structured around them, but we didn't even stop to consider the idea that maybe it is the systems we've built around them that are pathological in themselves. We have this basic notion that if someone doesn't fit in with this social mold we've built that it must be a fault in them, it must be a sickness they suffer from that prevents them from thriving in the ways we expect them to. But why are we not asking ourselves whether the square hole that we are trying to shove their round peg into isn't the problem in itself? Why do we think we are helpless to change things on a systemic level? We grate against the idea that the world we've built might be a bad fit for us, and not the other way around. Instead, we have pathologized what is an entirely natural reaction to the world people live in. We think we need medication to make humans fit better into this system, but really it is the system that is failing us. We built this world for us to live in, why did we make it so incredibly hostile to human happiness?
Bantros 7y ago
Alright Ted! Joking aside, I tend to agree
throwawaylolx 7y ago
How would you know this without any reliable data regarding pre-industrialization depression levels? Maybe depressed people congregate around urban areas, seeking fulfilment or acceptance, or any other explanation.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  What I do have is reliable data regarding the working conditions of average people in industrializing economies, and the correlation between consumer debt, depression, and suicide: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-consumer-debt/ https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-co... > In the US alone, individuals who struggle to pay off their debts and loans are more than twice as likely to experience mental health problems, including depression and anxiety. Today’s unprecedented levels of consumer debt prompt further exploration of its effect on mental and physical well-being. > While suicide is not a common response to unmanageable debt, it remains a leading cause of death in the US. The potential of suicide increases among financially distressed individuals as debt levels become harder to manage. Suicide rates have increased by more than 30 percent since 1999 according to a recent report by the Center for Disease Control. Like Jerome, more than half of people who die by suicide do not have a history of depression or mental illness. Almost 30 percent of suicides occur in response to a crisis within the past two weeks and 16 percent occur in response to a financial problem.
  - throwawaylolx 7y ago
    And what were the working conditions of the average people in pre-industrial economies? >The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom. [1] The common historical interpretion today is that the industrial revolution _improved_ the standards of living for the average person, so it's contradictory to your thesis. [1] Forsythe, David P. Encyclopedia of human rights. Vol. 1. Oxford University Press, 2009. (399)
    - aalleavitch 7y ago
Dumblydorr 7y ago
Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems. Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  > About 11% of the workers reported suicidal ideation at follow-up, while 3% of them reported moderate/severe suicidal ideation at follow-up. After controlling for age, marital status, race, family history of suicide, and suicidal ideation at baseline, low skill discretion and job strain (a combination of low job control and high job demands) were associated with total suicidal ideation. After excluding those with suicidal ideation at baseline from analysis and further controlling for other work stressors, job strain was strongly associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation: ORs, 4.29 (1.30–14.15) for quartile-based job strain and 3.77 (1.21–11.70) for median-based job strain. Long work hours (> 40 h/week vs. ≤ 40 h/week) also increased the likelihood for moderate/severe suicidal ideation: OR 4.06 (1.08–15.19). > Job strain and long work hours were longitudinally associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation. Increasing job control and ensuring optimal level of work demands, including 40 h or less of work per week may be an important strategy for the prevention of suicide in working populations. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00420-018-1330-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00420-018-1330-7 Here's a study showing that suicide risk varies with workplace, workplace environment, and financial strain: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-occupation/suicide-rate-rising-among-u-s-workers-idUSKCN1NQ2M6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-occupation... Also: http://electronicswatch.org/the-link-between-employment-conditions-and-suicide-a-study-of-the-electronics-sector-in-china-november-2018_2549396.pdf http://electronicswatch.org/the-link-between-employment-cond...
- blauditore 7y ago
  There are other thinkable causes: Air pollution reduces total daylight exposure of people, and light has been observed to have strong effects on mood and mental health, among other things.
icandoit 7y ago
What conclusions can we make about the fact that Japan (an industrialized country) has a longer life span the US (also an industrialized country)? There is more than one variable in play. We can optimize wealth AND health. (An aside: Your argument is a form of learned helplessness. I expect more from you. I am certain that in matters of business and your families well-being you are not so reductionist.) What kinds of solutions would you like to see?

sooheon 7y ago

What gives you this certainty?

tomrod 7y ago
Bayesian priors, I reckon.
- sooheon 7y ago
  This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?
  - tomrod 7y ago
    Fair critique, as the GP didn't say certainty but my response was pre-supposed. I would say that we don't have a well-founded, commonly known model linking air pollution and depression. However their confounding experience through poverty is accepted and easily understood.
    - sooheon 7y ago
      My bad, I read “confidence” and put “certainty” in their mouth. I can agree other already understood factors exist, and may confound the problem. But confounding != negation. And the health effects of air pollution are well understood and bad enough that denying the link from pollution -> depression is equivalent to denying link from bad health -> depression.
      - tomrod 7y ago
        We agree on this point.
  - ailideex 7y ago
    There is opposing evidence?
    - sooheon 7y ago
      Multiple links to recent studies in the article, and a large body of work on the effects of pollution on health in general.
c048 7y ago
Because pinpointing the solution to complex problems to one, easily defined root cause has, in the past, always proven to be bullshit. Silver bullets, just like with code, do not exist for real life problems.
- sooheon 7y ago
  There is no silver bullet in the study, they explicitly call it just a “link”. The straw man is in your mind.
aalleavitch 7y ago
Because the medicalization of depression is a convenient way to avoid thinking about the fact that it is a prominent feature of the status quo, not some aberration. Pollution correlates with industrial manufacturing and warehouse work environments and crushing poverty that forces people to live in a manner consistent with economic efficiency rather than with human happiness and well-being. Long work hours and little money contribute to social isolation. Debt traps put people in situations in which they could not possibly ever claw their way out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24121465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24121465 > A meta-analysis of pooled odds ratios showed a significant relationship between debt and mental disorder (OR=3.24), depression (OR=2.77), suicide completion (OR=7.9), suicide completion or attempt (OR=5.76), problem drinking (OR=2.68), drug dependence (OR=8.57), neurotic disorder (OR=3.21) and psychotic disorders (OR=4.03). When are we going to start designing our economies around creating a healthy and enjoyable environment for humans to actually live in, and not arranging human lives around squeezing the greatest amount of economic efficiency out of them as possible? The way we make ourselves live is tantamount to animal abuse.
- sooheon 7y ago
  I agree that depression is a serious and systemic problem, but I don't see why that invalidates medical inquiry into physical causes as well. We can study a problem from multiple angles, because we're merely trying to understand better. Everything you said about depression is bad, and 24/7 smog is also a bad thing which may lead to depression, one does not preclude the other from being factual.
  - aalleavitch 7y ago
    I don't disagree in principle with the idea that the physical aspects of/influences on depression are worth studying. I do, however, think the overall approach we are taking towards depression as a society is fundamentally backwards. We have a massive industry that is focused around producing psychiatric medication so that people can more effectively operate in the society we've structured around them, but we didn't even stop to consider the idea that maybe it is the systems we've built around them that are pathological in themselves. We have this basic notion that if someone doesn't fit in with this social mold we've built that it must be a fault in them, it must be a sickness they suffer from that prevents them from thriving in the ways we expect them to. But why are we not asking ourselves whether the square hole that we are trying to shove their round peg into isn't the problem in itself? Why do we think we are helpless to change things on a systemic level? We grate against the idea that the world we've built might be a bad fit for us, and not the other way around. Instead, we have pathologized what is an entirely natural reaction to the world people live in. We think we need medication to make humans fit better into this system, but really it is the system that is failing us. We built this world for us to live in, why did we make it so incredibly hostile to human happiness?

Bantros 7y ago

Alright Ted! Joking aside, I tend to agree

throwawaylolx 7y ago

How would you know this without any reliable data regarding pre-industrialization depression levels? Maybe depressed people congregate around urban areas, seeking fulfilment or acceptance, or any other explanation.

aalleavitch 7y ago
What I do have is reliable data regarding the working conditions of average people in industrializing economies, and the correlation between consumer debt, depression, and suicide: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-consumer-debt/ https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-co... > In the US alone, individuals who struggle to pay off their debts and loans are more than twice as likely to experience mental health problems, including depression and anxiety. Today’s unprecedented levels of consumer debt prompt further exploration of its effect on mental and physical well-being. > While suicide is not a common response to unmanageable debt, it remains a leading cause of death in the US. The potential of suicide increases among financially distressed individuals as debt levels become harder to manage. Suicide rates have increased by more than 30 percent since 1999 according to a recent report by the Center for Disease Control. Like Jerome, more than half of people who die by suicide do not have a history of depression or mental illness. Almost 30 percent of suicides occur in response to a crisis within the past two weeks and 16 percent occur in response to a financial problem.
- throwawaylolx 7y ago
  And what were the working conditions of the average people in pre-industrial economies? >The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom. [1] The common historical interpretion today is that the industrial revolution _improved_ the standards of living for the average person, so it's contradictory to your thesis. [1] Forsythe, David P. Encyclopedia of human rights. Vol. 1. Oxford University Press, 2009. (399)
  - aalleavitch 7y ago

Dumblydorr 7y ago

Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems. Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?

aalleavitch 7y ago
> About 11% of the workers reported suicidal ideation at follow-up, while 3% of them reported moderate/severe suicidal ideation at follow-up. After controlling for age, marital status, race, family history of suicide, and suicidal ideation at baseline, low skill discretion and job strain (a combination of low job control and high job demands) were associated with total suicidal ideation. After excluding those with suicidal ideation at baseline from analysis and further controlling for other work stressors, job strain was strongly associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation: ORs, 4.29 (1.30–14.15) for quartile-based job strain and 3.77 (1.21–11.70) for median-based job strain. Long work hours (> 40 h/week vs. ≤ 40 h/week) also increased the likelihood for moderate/severe suicidal ideation: OR 4.06 (1.08–15.19). > Job strain and long work hours were longitudinally associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation. Increasing job control and ensuring optimal level of work demands, including 40 h or less of work per week may be an important strategy for the prevention of suicide in working populations. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00420-018-1330-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00420-018-1330-7 Here's a study showing that suicide risk varies with workplace, workplace environment, and financial strain: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-occupation/suicide-rate-rising-among-u-s-workers-idUSKCN1NQ2M6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-occupation... Also: http://electronicswatch.org/the-link-between-employment-conditions-and-suicide-a-study-of-the-electronics-sector-in-china-november-2018_2549396.pdf http://electronicswatch.org/the-link-between-employment-cond...
blauditore 7y ago
There are other thinkable causes: Air pollution reduces total daylight exposure of people, and light has been observed to have strong effects on mood and mental health, among other things.

icandoit 7y ago

What conclusions can we make about the fact that Japan (an industrialized country) has a longer life span the US (also an industrialized country)? There is more than one variable in play. We can optimize wealth AND health. (An aside: Your argument is a form of learned helplessness. I expect more from you. I am certain that in matters of business and your families well-being you are not so reductionist.) What kinds of solutions would you like to see?