7 ms·

I live in Northern India which has heavy air pollution. I recently bought an air purifier. Just the difference in the quality of sleep is amazing. And it is not

by sn41 7y ago

I live in Northern India which has heavy air pollution. I recently bought an air purifier. Just the difference in the quality of sleep is amazing. And it is not a placebo effect. The filters are already visibly grimy. The PM 2.5 consistently now is around mid 20s down from around 180-190. I would recommend it to all in North India who can afford it, esp households with small children.

saagarjha 7y ago
> And it is not a placebo effect. How do you know?
- opportune 7y ago
  You do not deserve the downvotes. Just because the purifier takes particulates out of the air doesn’t mean the effects on humans isn’t placebo
  - mc3 7y ago
    This seems ripe for placebo. Installing purifier and indeed measuring lower PM, means naturally you feel less worried and more relaxed!
    - coldtea 7y ago
      On the other hand, measuring lower PM is indeed a quantifiable metric.
      - mc3 7y ago
        Yeah it depends what question you are trying to answer: 1. Does my air purifier filter out PM2.5? or 2. Dos lower PM2.5 make me sleep better? For #1 there is no placebo effect (there is no human element!)
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      It's time to hire someone to maybe break the filter somewhen for a duration. And hack the meter to report invalid data.
      - insickness 7y ago
        I've always thought it would be an interesting service where someone did this with medication/supplements. They sent you supplies of both the real and sugar pill meds for a certain duration and you recorded how you felt.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        Generally, denying people access to healthcare in for the sake of experimentation is unethical.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    Sure, but this is misplaced skepticism. There have been many studies attesting to the harms of PM 2.5 and the benefits of intervention. The onus isn't on a single consumer to set up a double blind, randomized test for himself, the onus is on you to simply google for the many that have been already done. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-1572OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-157... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-069X-12-116 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-06...
    - throwawaylolx 7y ago
      Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.
      - sooheon 7y ago
        There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?
        throwawaylolx 7y ago
        >Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach? I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of. In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would say it's very reasonable to ask someone to elaborate on why they are so convinced that their method of treatment is not a placebo for sleep quality. No one is saying they have to "prove" it--they can just elaborate on their conviction: perhaps OP had many insomnnia treatments before and this was the only one that showed efficiency. Not a proof, but it is some circumstatial evidence. On the other hand, maybe OP is not aware how effective placebos are, in which case his statement may be too strong to straight-out declare that "it's not a placebo effect."
- sn41 7y ago
  please read the very next sentence. peace.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    That doesn't answer my question, unfortunately.
    - sn41 7y ago
      You do have a point.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Right right, but if you look at https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/i-had-toxins-sucked-out-of-my-feet https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/i-had-toxins-sucked-out-... you can see that things do change in colour sometimes and it may have nothing to do with the outcome.
  - civilian 7y ago
    We've proven that the air filter can remove particulates from the air. We haven't proven that it's improvement on your sleep is any more than a placebo.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  I think he means based on the size of the effect it's unlikely to be a placebo.
  - civilian 7y ago
    A treatment being a placebo implies nothing about the effect size!
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
      Most placebo effects are modest and the ones that aren't are usually mixed in with regression to the mean effects(which are usually pretty modest). So OP is implying that if an effect is especially large it's less likely to be placebo.
      - btmorex 7y ago
        Placebo effects on depression are enormous.
  - mewpmewp2 7y ago
    Well the reasoning was pointing towards high chance of placebo though. He said there was lots of grime and also something he could measure was different, which means psychologically a lot greater chance and effect for placebo.
    - sandoooo 7y ago
      I don't think that's how it works. In the hypothetical world where he reports no grime on filters and no difference in readings yet his sleep is better, would you predict lower chance of placebo?
      - mewpmewp2 7y ago
        That is actually a great thought experiment.
  - 7y ago
- abstractbarista 7y ago
  Try this: Start smoking a pack of cigs every day (evenly spaced out throughout the day, from dawn to dusk) for 3 months. Then, stop. Observe your lung function and comfort levels throughout the next 3 months. I am rather certain that you will feel a difference. :)
  - nathancahill 7y ago
    Yes. Recently moved to a high PM 2.5 area, running ionizers in the bedroom and the rest of the house improves things immensely. This is exactly how it feels.
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Are you sure? We had one of the bigger Blue Airs (605) in Beijing and I didn’t like using it at all. When it was a 150-200 day, I would just run it before sleep with the windows closed. On worse days, we ran it all night, but it was loud and made the air smell like ozone, giving me a headache. I’m so glad I live in the Seattle area now and can open the window at night.
- ericd 7y ago
  Making the air smell like ozone means it’s probably doing something unhelpful/actively harmful in addition to filtering. Did it have an ionizer or similar?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    No, it’s a Blue Air so doesn’t include an ionizer, it just when HEPA filter.
    - ericd 7y ago
      Huh weird, seems highly rated, too. If it was loud in addition to the ozone smell and there was definitely no ionizer, I wonder if the motor was faulty.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        It could have been fake. I bought it in a Chinese mall after all. 6000 kuai also. But I doubt it, I think it could have just been the stale air in the apartment getting to me, you can’t open the windows when you are using it of course. A real HVAC with air filtering will circulate air from the outside, so is quite different.
    - kaybe 7y ago
      Where is the ozone coming from then? Something doesn't seem right.
      - 7y ago
rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
I'd bet than investing in cleaner vehicles (ICE > EV) and energy source (call > renewable/nuclear) would have much greater health and climate benefits and for much higher ROI.
- sooheon 7y ago
  Why not both? I’m temporarily in an area That regularly sustains pm2.5 levels the WHO considers dangerous at 24 hour exposure. I’d rather buy a cheap and effective air purifier and mask than change the entire population over to renewables and electronics. It’s like refusing to wear a mask next to the california wildfires saying it’d be a cleaner solution to just put out the flames.

by sn41 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

> And it is not a placebo effect. How do you know?

opportune 7y ago
You do not deserve the downvotes. Just because the purifier takes particulates out of the air doesn’t mean the effects on humans isn’t placebo
- mc3 7y ago
  This seems ripe for placebo. Installing purifier and indeed measuring lower PM, means naturally you feel less worried and more relaxed!
  - coldtea 7y ago
    On the other hand, measuring lower PM is indeed a quantifiable metric.
    - mc3 7y ago
      Yeah it depends what question you are trying to answer: 1. Does my air purifier filter out PM2.5? or 2. Dos lower PM2.5 make me sleep better? For #1 there is no placebo effect (there is no human element!)
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    It's time to hire someone to maybe break the filter somewhen for a duration. And hack the meter to report invalid data.
    - insickness 7y ago
      I've always thought it would be an interesting service where someone did this with medication/supplements. They sent you supplies of both the real and sugar pill meds for a certain duration and you recorded how you felt.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Generally, denying people access to healthcare in for the sake of experimentation is unethical.
- sooheon 7y ago
  Sure, but this is misplaced skepticism. There have been many studies attesting to the harms of PM 2.5 and the benefits of intervention. The onus isn't on a single consumer to set up a double blind, randomized test for himself, the onus is on you to simply google for the many that have been already done. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-1572OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-157... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-069X-12-116 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-06...
  - throwawaylolx 7y ago
    Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.
    - sooheon 7y ago
      There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?
      - throwawaylolx 7y ago
        >Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach? I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of. In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would say it's very reasonable to ask someone to elaborate on why they are so convinced that their method of treatment is not a placebo for sleep quality. No one is saying they have to "prove" it--they can just elaborate on their conviction: perhaps OP had many insomnnia treatments before and this was the only one that showed efficiency. Not a proof, but it is some circumstatial evidence. On the other hand, maybe OP is not aware how effective placebos are, in which case his statement may be too strong to straight-out declare that "it's not a placebo effect."
sn41 7y ago
please read the very next sentence. peace.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  That doesn't answer my question, unfortunately.
  - sn41 7y ago
    You do have a point.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Right right, but if you look at https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/i-had-toxins-sucked-out-of-my-feet https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/i-had-toxins-sucked-out-... you can see that things do change in colour sometimes and it may have nothing to do with the outcome.
- civilian 7y ago
  We've proven that the air filter can remove particulates from the air. We haven't proven that it's improvement on your sleep is any more than a placebo.
JamesBarney 7y ago
I think he means based on the size of the effect it's unlikely to be a placebo.
- civilian 7y ago
  A treatment being a placebo implies nothing about the effect size!
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Most placebo effects are modest and the ones that aren't are usually mixed in with regression to the mean effects(which are usually pretty modest). So OP is implying that if an effect is especially large it's less likely to be placebo.
    - btmorex 7y ago
      Placebo effects on depression are enormous.
- mewpmewp2 7y ago
  Well the reasoning was pointing towards high chance of placebo though. He said there was lots of grime and also something he could measure was different, which means psychologically a lot greater chance and effect for placebo.
  - sandoooo 7y ago
    I don't think that's how it works. In the hypothetical world where he reports no grime on filters and no difference in readings yet his sleep is better, would you predict lower chance of placebo?
    - mewpmewp2 7y ago
      That is actually a great thought experiment.
- 7y ago
abstractbarista 7y ago
Try this: Start smoking a pack of cigs every day (evenly spaced out throughout the day, from dawn to dusk) for 3 months. Then, stop. Observe your lung function and comfort levels throughout the next 3 months. I am rather certain that you will feel a difference. :)
- nathancahill 7y ago
  Yes. Recently moved to a high PM 2.5 area, running ionizers in the bedroom and the rest of the house improves things immensely. This is exactly how it feels.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

Are you sure? We had one of the bigger Blue Airs (605) in Beijing and I didn’t like using it at all. When it was a 150-200 day, I would just run it before sleep with the windows closed. On worse days, we ran it all night, but it was loud and made the air smell like ozone, giving me a headache. I’m so glad I live in the Seattle area now and can open the window at night.

ericd 7y ago
Making the air smell like ozone means it’s probably doing something unhelpful/actively harmful in addition to filtering. Did it have an ionizer or similar?
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  No, it’s a Blue Air so doesn’t include an ionizer, it just when HEPA filter.
  - ericd 7y ago
    Huh weird, seems highly rated, too. If it was loud in addition to the ozone smell and there was definitely no ionizer, I wonder if the motor was faulty.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      It could have been fake. I bought it in a Chinese mall after all. 6000 kuai also. But I doubt it, I think it could have just been the stale air in the apartment getting to me, you can’t open the windows when you are using it of course. A real HVAC with air filtering will circulate air from the outside, so is quite different.
  - kaybe 7y ago
    Where is the ozone coming from then? Something doesn't seem right.
    - 7y ago

rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago

I'd bet than investing in cleaner vehicles (ICE > EV) and energy source (call > renewable/nuclear) would have much greater health and climate benefits and for much higher ROI.

sooheon 7y ago
Why not both? I’m temporarily in an area That regularly sustains pm2.5 levels the WHO considers dangerous at 24 hour exposure. I’d rather buy a cheap and effective air purifier and mask than change the entire population over to renewables and electronics. It’s like refusing to wear a mask next to the california wildfires saying it’d be a cleaner solution to just put out the flames.