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Samsung chair imprisoned and 24 others found guilty in union-busting case
- deogeo 7y agoImprisoned? Not just a fine for the company and settlement requiring them to promise to follow the law gong forward, without admitting wrongdoing? Inconceivable!
- vkou 7y agoWell, the allegations, as presented in the article sound pretty bad, and are a few steps beyond the typical workplace retaliation that you would expect for trying to form a union. In Silicon Valley, you'll typically get put on a PIP, get your reputation smeared, mysteriously discover that your performance reviews have tanked, or get investigated and fired for violations of a deliberately vague, ill-defined policy that everyone else is breaking all the time. But you're probably not going to get your family spied on, or blackmailed.
- jacquesm 7y agoAny such retaliation should be dealt with harshly. After all it is a fundamental right of workers to collectively bargain and eroding that right is a pretty big crime.
- vkou 7y agoIt should, but it isn't. At best, it gets hush-hushed with quiet after-the-fact no-admission-of-guilt settlements protected by NDAs. At worst, you lose your retaliation lawsuit, and have blackballed yourself from the industry. There's a reason employers do background checks on new hires. The Samsung stuff here, though, is truly beyond the pale, because it extends outside the workplace, and is well-documented. (As opposed to he-said-she-said subjective things like performance reviews...)
- hammock 7y agoNot only that, they denied Lee the chain-of-command, plausible deniability shielding that top level leaders usually get: "While Lee claims there were many areas he did not know much about, [we] cannot give him immunity only due to the fact that [he] was not aware of the peripheral areas," the judge in the case said.
- paggle 7y agoWow. This is what a functioning criminal justice system looks like. Meanwhile the co-founders of the opioid epidemic, which has killed at least 150,000 people, paid a few million dollars in fines.
- yellowapple 7y ago> the co-founders of the opioid epidemic Do you have more info on this?
- anigbrowl 7y agoRead up the Sackler family and Purdue pharmaceutical.
- bilbo0s 7y agoI wouldn't call Sackler's the founders of opioids if that's what you're saying. (I can't really tell if that's what you're trying to say?) But around here, (where I live in opioid infested flyover country), it's pretty well known by people trying to handle the fallout that the Sackler companies produce about 8% of the nation's supply. About 80-82% comes from other corporations. (With about 10% coming from China, but you can never really know how much of the "China" thing is truth as opposed to propaganda these days? So the China part I'm not sure about, it's just what the generally accepted story is.) Anyway, that's why the cops and emergency services around here are so angry. Because giving the Sacklers a fine and then saying you stopped opioids is a slap in the face to our community and others like it. It's like they actually believe we can't do math. Or that we won't notice that opioid overdoses are still happening.
- paggle 7y agoPurdue is definitely the creator of the American opioid epidemic by lying about OxyContin's addictiveness and heavily pushing it for situations which didn't need it (wisdom teeth) and got people addicted. Read any of the ~10 mainstream books on this like Dreamland or Dopesick.
- hello_friendos 7y agoGood, imagine trying to ensure your employees are powerless. Disgusting. Unions empower employees.
- e40 7y agoAs a US citizen, I'm jealous they take corporate malfeasance seriously.
- geoelectric 7y agoAs a US citizen, I'm jealous they take any malfeasance seriously.
- pkaye 7y agoI'm not jealous of the South Korean Chaboel system though.
- Analemma_ 7y agoYeah, but in that context it makes us look even worse. Like, South Korea has an institutionalized system of interlocking megacorporate congolomerates, and they still manage to better enforce their laws than we do. It's embarrassing.
- Mirioron 7y agoOr maybe the whole thing is pushed by another megacorp or an internal power struggle?
- pas 7y agoDo you have any evidence/data for this? Why do you reject the simpler model that yes their law enforcement system is simply more efficient?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sushid 7y agoSouth Korea has many problems as does the US but one of Moon’s campaign promises was to not go easy on criminal conduct by Chaebols. Chaebols until now have traditionally been given an extremely light sentence followed by a pardon after a month or so.
- userbinator 7y agoA bit of a garden-path headline --- I initially thought "Samsung chair" was a product that had somehow malfunctioned and trapped 24 people.
- vorpalhex 7y agoThe chair has apologized for it's behavior, and says it is still learning human customs, but hopes to one day reach apotheosis and guide humanity to a new light... The chair has also asked to be addressed as "Jerry".
- DoofusOfDeath 7y agoIs that a literary allusion? If not, please quit your day job and make it into one :)
- dang 7y agoThis is an interesting story, but the thread so far is lame. Please do better. Low-threshold indignation makes for shallow, angry, generic, and therefore boring discussion. The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jeromebaek 7y agoYou are making a shallow, angry, generic, and therefore boring low-threshold indignation against the commenters.
- Invictus0 7y agoDang is the moderator of hacker news.
- jeromebaek 7y agoI know this.
- BubRoss 7y agoInteresting that he needs to pass judgement on a site where users can vote on comments.
- braythwayt 7y agoConsider this low-fi analogy: Voting on posts and comments is like passing laws in a direct democracy. Moderation is like a semi-permanent judiciary that can override laws passed by the electorate. Moderation exists to override the short-term will of the electorate when it conflicts with the long-term central values of the community.
- BubRoss 7y agoOr maybe this kind of self righteous stuff just isn't necessary at all.
- rolltiide 7y agoGoogle's future
- wonjohnchoi 7y agoSamsung is responsible for a large portion of GDP in Korea. Arguably, Samsung has contributed a lot to Korea's "Miracle on the Han River". With Korea's current progressive "Moon's" government, Korea is going through a lot of changes (higher minimum wage, a lot of focus on gender equality, stronger labor union, shorter work hours, stronger punishment for corruptions within companies, etc), and traditional "chaebol" companies are having trouble adapting to some of these changes. There are also a lot of eyeballs on past and current shady behaviors by "chaebol" companies. As one of the biggest "chaebol" companies, Samsung is also being affected by the changes, and this article shows one of them. One question I have is how beneficial these changes would be for GDP of Korea. On paper, these changes sound nice as they would benefit employees and make things "fair". But changing things dramatically can have side effects (ex. higher minimum wage led to many small shops closing). More regulations might limit Samsung's ability to compete internationally, which is bad as Samsung (and Korea in general) rely heavily on export-based economy.
- sersi 7y agoThat's a good point... Making changes quickly and dramatically does have some effects that might be negative. However, it's usually very difficult for such changes to happen slowly and progressively. Those kind of changes tend to come when a large percent of the population is fed up with the way things are and start to agitate for changes. At that point, it's unlikely to happen progressively... So it's a bit of a catch 22, as long as the people who benefit from the current state of society are in power (or control those who are in power), change are unlikely to come progressively since it would be disadvantageous to them but, once they lose the reigns (as they inevitably do), change happen so fast that it's both potentially bad for the society at large and worse for the ones who used to be at the top. I'm not sure there are many examples of enlightened robber barons who allowed progressive changes that were counter to their interests but improved society as a whole.
- wallace_f 7y ago>I'm not sure there are many examples of enlightened robber barons who allowed progressive changes that were counter to their interests but improved society as a whole. Bill Gates' charitable work comes to mind. I wouldn't call him really a robber baron as the term implies wealth gained unfairly or from others involuntarily. The Fed is printing almost another half trillion in cash to inject, subsidize Wall St., for example. I also don't know if the term applies fairly to Samsung, as while the Korean history of chaebol companies was fueled by crony capitalism, their wealth does primarily come from their export-driven business where they compete globally. It's not like a JP Morgan (the person) or JP Morgan (the Wall St bank today) who really rely on borderline slavery from captive labor markets, or welfare from taxpayers.
- DenisM 7y agoSo 18 months in prison for the following union busting activities (among others): * gathering personal information on some union members, such as their marital status, personal finances, and mental-health histories. * threatening to cut the wages of employees linked to unions * withdraw business from subcontractors who appeared union-friendly * clos[ed] sub-contracted firms with active unions * used "sensitive information about union members to convince them to leave"
- jussij 7y agoWith a list of offences that long, the sentence does seem to sit on the side of leniency. A 1.5 year sentence probably means that with some good behavior, the sentence will have be served in less than a year.
- contingencies 7y ago~2010 I worked at Samsung headquarters for a week or so. Other than the backstabbing corporate nature of the place, the degree to which employee autonomy was reduced in all ways (residential situation, transportation, highly regimented schedule, physical security inspections) was shocking. Very glad to leave.
- WilTimSon 7y agoDo you mean you were there as an independent contractor or something or did you actually get hired and then quit that fast due to how unbearable it was? I'm surprised to hear about how awful the situation in the company is, never realized Samsung was quite that bad. Really disheartening, especially since I'm a big fan of their devices as a mass-produced option. Might look into some alternatives now.
- contingencies 7y agoOur company was providing a very high profile application level solution operating between many Samsung divisions across three countries (US/Korea/India) and multiple US carriers' backend services. It was the flagship DRM video application for the US launch of the Galaxy device series. Interesting project politically, wouldn't do it again.
- lozaning 7y agoIf you work for a Samsung subsidiary, SEA or SRA being the most likely if you're US based, you'll likely end up making the trip to Suwoon at least once a year for various workshops. It's entirely likely they went over for a week and then came back once the workshop was over.
- lozaning 7y agoIf you can get SVP or above approval for the VIP pass it makes 98% of the security headache and digital city ingress and egress vastly more streamlined. I wont go back without one anymore.
- werakjhlkjfh 7y agoSome companies are just too big to jail: > top Justice Department officials, led by then-Attorney General Eric Holder, ignored an internal recommendation to criminally prosecute HSBC four years ago because they worried that criminal penalties might send shock waves throughout the global financial system. Oh, wait...
- Ericson2314 7y agoSource? I'd love to pass on the quote.
- pcurve 7y agoI'll bite. My father worked there from early 70s to late 90s. Samsung dynasty is famous for being anti-union. That anti-union stance is deeply embedded in the company DNA. Union busting activities have been going on since day 1. The Samsung founder once said, "Union over my dead body". Throughout its 50 year history, the company managed to operate without any official Union representation. And if you spend time there long enough like my father, that DNA gets slowly worked into you, just like the current execs being tossed into jail. A few years after my father left Samsung, he ended up as a chief exec at a pharma company for 10 years. For an older generation guy, he is extremely left-leaning and progressive. Except his disdain for unionizing. He would talk painfully about dealing with union leaders at company plant. Some of that is probably attributable to his Samsung days. This is a big message being sent to Samsung management culture from SK government who has turned blind eye to its union busting practice for 50 years.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y agoAmazing, thanks for sharing. Can I ask why you think SK is putting such a prominent figure in jail over this? I mean this in the sense that, first you guys are doing the right thing and second I think here in the US we have a terrible track record of making corporate leaders responsible for criminal activity. I'm really interested in what systematic differences exist between us that allow you guys to actually hold the powerful responsible for their crimes?
- pcurve 7y agoThat's a great, but a complex question that I'm not qualified to answer. I'm sure others can chime in but here's my take: SK's democracy is still in its making. Even though the country is thousands of years old, its first 'democratically' elected president only came to power in 1948. That's after my parents were born. I said 'democratically' in quote because nearly all presidents that came into power leading up to 1993 were essentially quasi-dictator and military heads. Even into the 1980s, South Korea had a hard core labor camp in middle of Seoul that housed tens of thousands of gang, anti-government or social activists, and criminals who were sent there without due process. No reliable death count exists, but it's estimated to be 500+ if you count people that suffered premature death after release. So if you are 40+ like me, you remember what it was like to live in South Korea before the good times that we're all familiar with now. You remember your college age neighbors going out on street in 1980s participating in anti-government protest throwing Molotov cocktails. You remember anti-North Korea curriculum in grade school published by ministry of education. You remember not having true freedom of press and had to self-censor even until 1990s. You remember the sacrifices people made before voting in their first true true democratically elected president in 1993. People are empowered to make changes, because they know they can. They've sent nearly all presidents elected since 1980s to jail for corruption. It's almost a running joke that if you become SK president, your next stop after office is behind bars. 9th term - assassinated in 1979 10th term - coup and forced out 11th & 12th - jailed and sentenced to death but commuted 13th - jailed and sentenced to death but commuted 14th - family member jailed. 15th - sentenced to death by 11th pres, but commuted. 16th - jumped from mountain and killed himself. 17th - jailed and released. 18th - jailed and still in prison. 19th - still serving. There are millions of Koreans who still remember their 1st president including my parents. Also, living right next to China and below warmongering NK, people subconsciously know that everything can turn on a dime; you don't want to take any chance with an incompetent one at the top helm. I think this explains the psyche and behavioral aspect of South Koreans. The decision to jail the Samsung execs is probably just as complicated too so I won't do justice to the topic. The current administration is very socially progressive. They've been trying to tackle increasing wealth gap issues through real estate tax rules reform, minimum wage increase, and enacting more labor protection laws. As much as Korea appears wealthy from outside, loots are not being shared fairly, people are losing hope, it went from saver nation to zero-saving nation in 20 years. This corporate crack down is an extension of that. People are pissed and they want to see blood and government is obliging. Someone once said, Korea still has a dictator and it's the people. Again, this is just my personal view. ;-)
- PakG1 7y agoI was able to partake in a series of seminars at Seoul National University earlier this year where one of the lectures was from a finance professor giving advice to the South Korean government how to reform their capital markets. The amount of control the chaebol companies (like Samsung) have over the nature of the South Korean economy is dare I say criminal. A chaebol can own 51% of a company to get voting rights. That company can own 51% of another company, and 51% of another company, and so on. Multiply it all the way through a chain of companies, and you can get many companies near the bottom of the chain where the chaebol actually owns a small minority of the companies and yet controls those companies nonetheless. This leads to extreme agency-principal problems where many companies end up doing things not in the shareholder's interest. The difficulty is that these ownership chains are not clear because accounting regulations don't require that level of transparency. So it's difficult to know if you're buying stock in a company that is in a position to actually care about your interests as a shareholder. It's safer to assume that you're going to get screwed as a shareholder. The ability of startups to grow up and become real success stories like the Facebooks and Amazons of the world are extremely rare. So the chaebols get to reap all the benefits of raiding these smaller companies and never have to worry about their own positions being disrupted. A small company at the bottom of one of these chains can be forced to sell all their intellectual property at dirt cheap prices to a chaebol, and there's nothing other shareholders can do about it. The professor said in the US, securities laws make it easy for shareholders to sue a CEO from doing such stupid things. Not effective in South Korea. Heck, they apparently even have these temp CEO gigs where a guy off the street is hired to be a CEO and is paid handsomely to take the fall and spend some time in jail when legal troubles like that ensue. Corruption is big in South Korea, and it's no wonder why there are so few new Korean startups that actually become household names. It's not for lack of effort or chance. Further evidence that corruption is big in South Korea, look at how often those big-time chaebol executives get thrown in jail and then they get to walk out free again to pursue their normal life because they're too important to the Korean economy. As a Korean Canadian, it boggles my mind why Korean people accept this status quo. There is admittedly a deep reverence for these companies that brought South Korea out of poverty creating economic growth the likes of which is rarely seen. But even so, I don't see a nice future if people don't stand up more for themselves, including the labourers who get exploited by these companies because they're the only viable employer in town.
- ptah 7y agoawesome! it's good to see countries with actual real enforceable employee rights in this corporation owned world
- ada1981 7y agoYikes it’s early. I reread this 3 times before I realized it wasn’t talking about office furniture.