14 ms·

The thing that sucks here is the health issues have nothing inherently to do with THC and everything to do with vaping a black market product that has shitty in

The thing that sucks here is the health issues have nothing inherently to do with THC and everything to do with vaping a black market product that has shitty ingredients in it. I live in CA where it is becoming more and more regulated. I have a 'church' down the street where I can buy stuff at a steeeep discount (no tax, lower prices)... but I go to the regulated places the next town over (higher taxes, higher prices) that do lab testing and have their products sealed with a lab certificate. As soon as I learned that the underground trap shops were buying, cleaning and refilling used cartriges with god knows what I stopped going to the churches.

kalessin 7y ago
I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I would not dismiss teen smoking/vaping as a public health concern, it's not just about counterfeiting, I think we need better education about the risks and benefits.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) Last I remember from my psychology classes, it was 25 to 28. 21 feels like a number picked to reflect law and cultural norms, not the science. But my information is a decade out of date and there could have been new findings since.
  - e40 7y ago
    I thought 25 was chosen because that's when brain development is mostly completed.
    - taurath 7y ago
      This has become quite the meme lately as a pop-neurology fact, but its... clearly untrue the ways people try to apply it. It creates a sort of fatalism about being able to improve or change your mind that in no way reflects whats actually possible.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    I haven't seen studies supporting 25-28. Most studies support a slightly lower number than 21, but not much lower.
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      25 to 28 is when the myelination of the brain finishes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/myelination https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... >Further myelination of subcortical and cortical tracts continues in the posterior to anterior direction well into the third decade of life, consistent with the time course of maturation of cognitive functions in children and adolescents. Mish Shoykhet, Robert S.B. Clark, in Pediatric Critical Care (Fourth Edition), 2011
- wbronitsky 7y ago
  What have you been reading? Can you share some of that data with us so we can come to a common understanding? I was under the impression that this was not a fact, just a supposition; I would love to be enlightened!
  - gewrtw45 7y ago
    > The team found that persistent marijuana use was linked to a decline in IQ, even after the researchers controlled for educational differences. The most persistent users — those who reported using the drug in three or more waves of the study — experienced a drop in neuropsychological functioning equivalent to about six IQ points (PNAS, 2012). "That's in the same realm as what you'd see with lead exposure," says Weiss. "It's not a trifle." > a number of studies have found evidence of brain changes in teens and young adults who smoke marijuana. In 2013, Rocío Martín-Santos, MD, PhD, at the University of Barcelona, and colleagues reviewed 43 studies of chronic cannabis use and the brain. They found consistent evidence of both structural brain abnormalities and altered neural activity in marijuana users. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain
    - jbob2000 7y ago
      That's great, but what does that actually mean for someone? Does it mean that they are less happy? Does it mean that they earn less money? Does it mean they have less meaningful relationships? I understand the mechanisms behind marijuana use, but what is the real effect on a person's life?
      - throwawaypa123 7y ago
        You can't really A/B test humans. Best thing that could be done is twin studies and even those have flaws. By the way your line of questioning implies an agenda. I don't have an issue with that, but thought I'd highlight that for you.
        jbob2000 7y ago
- jbob2000 7y ago
  What are the side effects of this system developing incorrectly?
  - rriepe 7y ago
    If you smoke heavily and quit, your endocannabinoid system underperforms by about 20% for two or three weeks. It basically dulls pleasure in everything, producing anhedonia, depressed appetite and irritability. It impacts sleep negatively too.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      How long does it take for full recovery?
      - eikenberry 7y ago
        As he said, a couple weeks.
      - MS90 7y ago
        Each time I've quit for an extended period of time it's taken me about three weeks to feel normal. During those weeks I definitely feel more grumpy and irritable. I'm also curious as to whether THC or other chemicals in the smoke have any effect on the body's thermoregulation, because each time I've quit I've also woken up drenched in sweat every night for about the first week or so. Crazy dreams as well. These have all been me going cold turkey after heavy daily use for extended periods of time.
        dzhiurgis 7y ago
        I find sleep changes really noticeable, so so everyone else. Dreams become very vivid for couple of days to a point of discomfort. When you smoke i never dream. When you stop body overcompensates.
        rconti 7y ago
- EEor 7y ago
  This is just my experience, but my endocannabinoid system is just flourishing. I, unfortunately, started smoking cannabis at age 16 and was using daily by age 18. I quit for 5 or so years in my mid-twenties and picked it up again in my early 30s.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  I'm very much for pro-fact-based drug education. Not just for THC, but for the most common things that folks can come into contact with. No scare tactics, just answering questions like what happens to one's body, what "high" feels like, realistic methods of ingestion, and benefits. Unfortunately, the greater public - the government at least - hasn't been so keen on such things because the focus is more on keeping drugs a scary evil. Even current drug education is such, though thankfully it isn't so "Drugs are bad, mkay?" as it was during the 'just say no' heydays in the 80's and 90's.
  - bdamm 7y ago
    Indeed, we seem to have ample evidence that Tylenol seems to be strongly associated with autism[1] and weakly with ADHD[2], yet its use is not only widespread but unquestioned. The problem, of course, is that it's complicated; correlation isn't necessarily causation. So how to respond? Should all high school students be taught how to think critically of bioscience results? It's not easy to distill down to distinct usable facts. Suggesting at all that it is safe for teens to vape THC is a very dangerous proposition. I think you'd have to at least prove that it is safer than lead in gasoline, and that is not easy. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 [2] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10/26/peds.2016-3840 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10...
    - Geimfari 7y ago
      Your first source is a bad one but here is a review: [1] The association is really not strong but the authors do advice against indiscriminate paracetamol use. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528
      - kyuudou 7y ago
        Tylenol/paracetamol use should be sparing to begin with just because of its harsh effect on the liver.
- Donald 7y ago
  The brain's corpus callosum continues developing into a person's mid 20's.
- guelo 7y ago
  Pro-legalization activists always over-claim marijuana's safety which has led to the claimed safety entering pop culture and becoming widely believed. The truth is that there is little solid research into the question.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    Hard to do research when marijuana is illegal.
- tomphoolery 7y ago
  > I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I've been smoking every day since I was 19 (currently 31), and my endocannabinoid system seems perfectly fine. Most of my peers have the same story, or have been smoking daily for longer. I think what you've been reading is incorrect. For future reference, I've noticed when people begin a sentence with "I am not a [lawyer|doctor|engineer]", they are typically incorrect.
  - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
    Weed can trigger latent schizophrenia if used at a younger age. It is not a good idea to use before the brain is developed, especially if one is predisposed to mental illnesses like schizophrenia. It also alters testosterone synthesis, so there’s that too.
    - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
      Leaving home to go to college can trigger latent schizophrenia too. So can a bad breakup with a girl or boyfriend. I’m not sure how useful that actually is.
- simonsarris 7y ago
  Agree. Here's one: http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full (2012) "Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife"
- denkmoon 7y ago
  It's certainly not a good thing. Is it comparatively better than other risky activities associated with young adults, such as binge drinking? I think yes.
  - liveoneggs 7y ago
    that oil-causing-lung-failure thing was no joke
    - Zpalmtree 7y ago
      But that wasn't from marijuana, it was from dodgy chinese carts
    - dwrodri 7y ago
      The deaths caused by the THC oil are definitely nothing to scoff at, but they are more reflective of cannabis' 70+ years as a black market product than they are of the effects cannabis has on the human body. The CDC has determined that a high concentration of Vitamin E was the likely cause of lung failure for the afflicted [1]. In my opinion, this reinforces how important regulatory bodies are when it comes to things that we put into our bodies. If we choose to continuously gravitate towards giving citizens greater bodily autonomy, it is extremely important that we ensure people know what's going into their body and the risks associated with it.
      - thatcat 7y ago
        The deaths were caused because vitamin E acetate requires bile salts to be absorbed, which are not present in the lungs. It had nothing to do with THC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-of-medical-biochemistry https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-...
        dwrodri 7y ago
        Looking back at my comment I see how my language wasn’t as clear as I thought. Thank you for clarifying, this is what I was trying to say. THC/Cannabinoids weren’t the issue, contaminants in the oil were.
dls2016 7y ago
> the health issues have nothing inherently to do with THC Daily smoker here and I think I'd disagree slightly. We've been hearing for decades that "today's weed" is stronger than the 60's or whatever. But my understanding is that modern extraction techniques made this something of a reality now that oil is so widespread; I've been continually shocked to discover the number of people I meet who own vape pens. Most of them use it responsibly, but the stories this summer described people who vaped hash oil all day long. Even if the cartridges weren't tainted, my guess is that this is qualitatively different than smoking flower all day long. Still not even same ballpark as the opiate explosion after I graduated high school.
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  Smoking all day long is more common than some people think. How much are we talking? Used correctly this theoretically shouldn't be a big deal and almost exactly the same as dry bud. You just take one drag instead of needing to smoke a whole bowl. If they're doing this a couple times during the day, then hitting it harder in the evening, it should be no big deal. Of course, there may be consequences to being stoned constantly, but that's true no matter what. The load on the lungs should be pretty tame; likely better than smoking. There's definitely the potential to become more tolerant though, due to the higher concentration, though.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - foolfoolz 7y ago
    when you have this tolerance you’re not high anymore you’re just buzzing for 15-30 mins at a time. before hand held vapes you would just keep your volcano on and repack the bags every 45 mins. you’re not hitting a vape 3-4 times a day it’s 3-4 times an hour 10+ hours a day
vanusa 7y ago
nothing inherently to do with THC That's a bit of a stretch. These people aren't vaping -- and suffering the negative consequences of it -- simply because it's "a black market product that has shitty ingredients in it". They're doing it (also) because THC is psychologically addictive. And because it also (when used chronically and excessively) seems to impair judgement and cognitive development. So actually - while it's not just about THC -- the issue is inherently related to THC and its intrinsic properties.

kalessin 7y ago

I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I would not dismiss teen smoking/vaping as a public health concern, it's not just about counterfeiting, I think we need better education about the risks and benefits.

SkyBelow 7y ago
>before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) Last I remember from my psychology classes, it was 25 to 28. 21 feels like a number picked to reflect law and cultural norms, not the science. But my information is a decade out of date and there could have been new findings since.
- e40 7y ago
  I thought 25 was chosen because that's when brain development is mostly completed.
  - taurath 7y ago
    This has become quite the meme lately as a pop-neurology fact, but its... clearly untrue the ways people try to apply it. It creates a sort of fatalism about being able to improve or change your mind that in no way reflects whats actually possible.
- MiroF 7y ago
  I haven't seen studies supporting 25-28. Most studies support a slightly lower number than 21, but not much lower.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    25 to 28 is when the myelination of the brain finishes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/myelination https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... >Further myelination of subcortical and cortical tracts continues in the posterior to anterior direction well into the third decade of life, consistent with the time course of maturation of cognitive functions in children and adolescents. Mish Shoykhet, Robert S.B. Clark, in Pediatric Critical Care (Fourth Edition), 2011
wbronitsky 7y ago
What have you been reading? Can you share some of that data with us so we can come to a common understanding? I was under the impression that this was not a fact, just a supposition; I would love to be enlightened!
- gewrtw45 7y ago
  > The team found that persistent marijuana use was linked to a decline in IQ, even after the researchers controlled for educational differences. The most persistent users — those who reported using the drug in three or more waves of the study — experienced a drop in neuropsychological functioning equivalent to about six IQ points (PNAS, 2012). "That's in the same realm as what you'd see with lead exposure," says Weiss. "It's not a trifle." > a number of studies have found evidence of brain changes in teens and young adults who smoke marijuana. In 2013, Rocío Martín-Santos, MD, PhD, at the University of Barcelona, and colleagues reviewed 43 studies of chronic cannabis use and the brain. They found consistent evidence of both structural brain abnormalities and altered neural activity in marijuana users. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain
  - jbob2000 7y ago
    That's great, but what does that actually mean for someone? Does it mean that they are less happy? Does it mean that they earn less money? Does it mean they have less meaningful relationships? I understand the mechanisms behind marijuana use, but what is the real effect on a person's life?
    - throwawaypa123 7y ago
      You can't really A/B test humans. Best thing that could be done is twin studies and even those have flaws. By the way your line of questioning implies an agenda. I don't have an issue with that, but thought I'd highlight that for you.
      - jbob2000 7y ago
jbob2000 7y ago
What are the side effects of this system developing incorrectly?
- rriepe 7y ago
  If you smoke heavily and quit, your endocannabinoid system underperforms by about 20% for two or three weeks. It basically dulls pleasure in everything, producing anhedonia, depressed appetite and irritability. It impacts sleep negatively too.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    How long does it take for full recovery?
    - eikenberry 7y ago
      As he said, a couple weeks.
    - MS90 7y ago
      Each time I've quit for an extended period of time it's taken me about three weeks to feel normal. During those weeks I definitely feel more grumpy and irritable. I'm also curious as to whether THC or other chemicals in the smoke have any effect on the body's thermoregulation, because each time I've quit I've also woken up drenched in sweat every night for about the first week or so. Crazy dreams as well. These have all been me going cold turkey after heavy daily use for extended periods of time.
      - dzhiurgis 7y ago
        I find sleep changes really noticeable, so so everyone else. Dreams become very vivid for couple of days to a point of discomfort. When you smoke i never dream. When you stop body overcompensates.
        rconti 7y ago
EEor 7y ago
This is just my experience, but my endocannabinoid system is just flourishing. I, unfortunately, started smoking cannabis at age 16 and was using daily by age 18. I quit for 5 or so years in my mid-twenties and picked it up again in my early 30s.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
I'm very much for pro-fact-based drug education. Not just for THC, but for the most common things that folks can come into contact with. No scare tactics, just answering questions like what happens to one's body, what "high" feels like, realistic methods of ingestion, and benefits. Unfortunately, the greater public - the government at least - hasn't been so keen on such things because the focus is more on keeping drugs a scary evil. Even current drug education is such, though thankfully it isn't so "Drugs are bad, mkay?" as it was during the 'just say no' heydays in the 80's and 90's.
- bdamm 7y ago
  Indeed, we seem to have ample evidence that Tylenol seems to be strongly associated with autism[1] and weakly with ADHD[2], yet its use is not only widespread but unquestioned. The problem, of course, is that it's complicated; correlation isn't necessarily causation. So how to respond? Should all high school students be taught how to think critically of bioscience results? It's not easy to distill down to distinct usable facts. Suggesting at all that it is safe for teens to vape THC is a very dangerous proposition. I think you'd have to at least prove that it is safer than lead in gasoline, and that is not easy. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445737 [2] https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10/26/peds.2016-3840 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/10...
  - Geimfari 7y ago
    Your first source is a bad one but here is a review: [1] The association is really not strong but the authors do advice against indiscriminate paracetamol use. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29341895 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26930528
    - kyuudou 7y ago
      Tylenol/paracetamol use should be sparing to begin with just because of its harsh effect on the liver.
Donald 7y ago
The brain's corpus callosum continues developing into a person's mid 20's.
guelo 7y ago
Pro-legalization activists always over-claim marijuana's safety which has led to the claimed safety entering pop culture and becoming widely believed. The truth is that there is little solid research into the question.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Hard to do research when marijuana is illegal.
tomphoolery 7y ago
> I am not a doctor but from what I have been reading, consuming THC on a regular basis before 21 (the commonly accepted age for the latest stage of brain development) is definitely a bad idea, as it will prevent the endocannabinoid system to develop correctly. I've been smoking every day since I was 19 (currently 31), and my endocannabinoid system seems perfectly fine. Most of my peers have the same story, or have been smoking daily for longer. I think what you've been reading is incorrect. For future reference, I've noticed when people begin a sentence with "I am not a [lawyer|doctor|engineer]", they are typically incorrect.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  Weed can trigger latent schizophrenia if used at a younger age. It is not a good idea to use before the brain is developed, especially if one is predisposed to mental illnesses like schizophrenia. It also alters testosterone synthesis, so there’s that too.
  - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
    Leaving home to go to college can trigger latent schizophrenia too. So can a bad breakup with a girl or boyfriend. I’m not sure how useful that actually is.
simonsarris 7y ago
Agree. Here's one: http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full http://m.pnas.org/content/109/40/E2657.full (2012) "Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife"
denkmoon 7y ago
It's certainly not a good thing. Is it comparatively better than other risky activities associated with young adults, such as binge drinking? I think yes.
- liveoneggs 7y ago
  that oil-causing-lung-failure thing was no joke
  - Zpalmtree 7y ago
    But that wasn't from marijuana, it was from dodgy chinese carts
  - dwrodri 7y ago
    The deaths caused by the THC oil are definitely nothing to scoff at, but they are more reflective of cannabis' 70+ years as a black market product than they are of the effects cannabis has on the human body. The CDC has determined that a high concentration of Vitamin E was the likely cause of lung failure for the afflicted [1]. In my opinion, this reinforces how important regulatory bodies are when it comes to things that we put into our bodies. If we choose to continuously gravitate towards giving citizens greater bodily autonomy, it is extremely important that we ensure people know what's going into their body and the risks associated with it.
    - thatcat 7y ago
      The deaths were caused because vitamin E acetate requires bile salts to be absorbed, which are not present in the lungs. It had nothing to do with THC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-of-medical-biochemistry https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124166875/essentials-...
      - dwrodri 7y ago
        Looking back at my comment I see how my language wasn’t as clear as I thought. Thank you for clarifying, this is what I was trying to say. THC/Cannabinoids weren’t the issue, contaminants in the oil were.

dls2016 7y ago

> the health issues have nothing inherently to do with THC Daily smoker here and I think I'd disagree slightly. We've been hearing for decades that "today's weed" is stronger than the 60's or whatever. But my understanding is that modern extraction techniques made this something of a reality now that oil is so widespread; I've been continually shocked to discover the number of people I meet who own vape pens. Most of them use it responsibly, but the stories this summer described people who vaped hash oil all day long. Even if the cartridges weren't tainted, my guess is that this is qualitatively different than smoking flower all day long. Still not even same ballpark as the opiate explosion after I graduated high school.

P_I_Staker 7y ago
Smoking all day long is more common than some people think. How much are we talking? Used correctly this theoretically shouldn't be a big deal and almost exactly the same as dry bud. You just take one drag instead of needing to smoke a whole bowl. If they're doing this a couple times during the day, then hitting it harder in the evening, it should be no big deal. Of course, there may be consequences to being stoned constantly, but that's true no matter what. The load on the lungs should be pretty tame; likely better than smoking. There's definitely the potential to become more tolerant though, due to the higher concentration, though.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- foolfoolz 7y ago
  when you have this tolerance you’re not high anymore you’re just buzzing for 15-30 mins at a time. before hand held vapes you would just keep your volcano on and repack the bags every 45 mins. you’re not hitting a vape 3-4 times a day it’s 3-4 times an hour 10+ hours a day

vanusa 7y ago

nothing inherently to do with THC That's a bit of a stretch. These people aren't vaping -- and suffering the negative consequences of it -- simply because it's "a black market product that has shitty ingredients in it". They're doing it (also) because THC is psychologically addictive. And because it also (when used chronically and excessively) seems to impair judgement and cognitive development. So actually - while it's not just about THC -- the issue is inherently related to THC and its intrinsic properties.