9 ms·

I don't do much hiring, but when I do I make an active effort to avoid reading candidates resumes. I've found it's not possible for me to enter an interview wi

by avip 7y ago

I don't do much hiring, but when I do I make an active effort to avoid reading candidates resumes. I've found it's not possible for me to enter an interview with an unbiased mind having read a resume.

josephorjoe 7y ago
This feels weird to me. If you have advertised a job and I've given you my resume, it is to give you some information you can use to avoid wasting your time and my time. Just like I would hope your advertisement is accurate and useful enough to let me decide if it is a good use of time for me to send you a resume (e.g., saw an ad for "react developer" -- got to the interview and they were looking for a "server side java dev" -- I mean -- wtf?). Not reading a resume before an interview feels... rude. It feels like the path that leads to you asking a Java/Go programmer to do a Javascript coding challenge in 50 minutes, which is a waste of everyone's time.
- avip 7y ago
  It is rude. People put lots of effort into resumes. But it's ruder to reject a candidate based on age, gender, martial status, education or lack thereof or doing non sw jobs in the past. I always talk on the phone before and that's where we both make sure the interview is of relevance.
  - tristor 7y ago
    If you can't read someone's resume without rejecting them based on age, gender, marital status, education or lack thereof, or for their non-sw work history, then it sounds like you're not a very good person to be interviewing candidates. The concept of "unconscious bias" might be true in an academic sense, but in a very real way you should be treating people with respect regardless of their characteristics, especially during an interview process. Not reading someone's resume isn't just rude, it's supremely disrespectful. I take a completely different approach, because I have been on the receiving end of disrespectful interviews and I won't stand for it and I don't expect the candidates I interview to accept it either. I carefully read the resume and research the candidate far in advance to the interview. I only ask questions during the interview which are open-ended, not trivia questions, and are directly related to either the content of the candidate's resume or things we're actually doing day-to-day on my team. The dog and pony show interview style is intensely disrespectful and so is the idea that you won't even read a candidate's resume. I've walked out of interviews where both have happened, and I hope everyone on HN gets the personal confidence to do the same. I'm a professional, I expect to be treated like a professional, and I return that by treating those I interview like professionals. End of story.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      Being cognizant of unconscious bias doesn't make someone a bad interviewer, in fact, it makes for the opposite. It sounds like you've had some combative interviews in the past (it sucks - I've had them too) but that's not the same as being aware of biases.
      - tristor 7y ago
        There's a difference between being cognizant of unconscious bias and being disrespectful to your candidate. I am cognizant of unconscious bias, so cognizant that I know it plays a much smaller role in biased outcomes than conscious intended bias. I read candidate resumes and I treat candidates with respect. The parent is disrespectful to the candidates they interview and I am being charitable in taking their explanation about bias at face value.
    - avip 7y ago
      >it sounds like you're not a very good person to be interviewing candidates We agree on that one, but the alternatives are worse. Would you like to take my place interviewing? It's a time consuming task I'd love to delegate to someone more experienced.
      - GreenJelloShot 7y ago
        I would honestly love to take a job that was 100% focused on interviewing and hiring technical people. I have been through so many bad interviews (on both sides of the desk) that I think it really should be a dedicated position staffed by people who actually understand the major defects in the industry.
        avip 7y ago
        You can always apply to triplebytes and get exactly such position :) <disclaimer: my affiliation with triplebytes is that they've rejected my application twice - possibly cementing parent suggestion that I'm underqualified to interview developers>
        7y ago
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    > age, gender, martial status What resume has this information? This is all stuff you can infer from the interview itself.
    - GreenJelloShot 7y ago
      Yeah, age I can understand. People usually list their college degree along with the date of graduation, so you can usually make a good guess about their age. But, I have no idea how you gather gender or marital status from a resume.
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        Most names are gendered. Can I tell 100% that Jane is female from the name? Of course not, but then I can’t tell with certainty that someone who graduated in 2011 is ~30 either. It’s fairly common in my experience for CVs from European candidates to have marital status/other family information (and often a photo!) on them. I don’t know why and I just ignore it.
        nkrisc 7y ago
        Very true. I suppose I worded my earlier comment poorly. You can generally infer age and gender from one's name and education dates (of course, not always). But the point I was trying to make it that this would not be explicitly on there, particularly marital status. But looks like even there I'm wrong. Pictures on resumes? That's a new one for me.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Yeah. It was super weird the first time I saw it on >80% of resumes I was screening for a director position in Europe. I asked my HR contact over there and she didn’t seem to think it was unusual at all.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Then don't have the interviewer read the resume, but have another person reading the resume give them the basic information about the expected skills.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Not reading resumes can be part of a process to efficiently discriminate by age, because it's precisely older people who have an interest in you reading a resume, because it's they who have important stuff there.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  > It feels like the path that leads to you asking a Java/Go programmer to do a Javascript coding challenge in 50 minutes, which is a waste of everyone's time. Depends, we always give someone a super small coding challenge (literally write 4 lines if you know how to, and the longest I’ve seen is something like 15), and any decent Java/Go dev could do that even if they had to learn JS on the spot (probably not necessary, but...). But yeah, I agree with your main point. Not reading a resume is rude.
TurkishPoptart 7y ago
What? Unbiased mind after reading a resume? I'm expecting you to read my resume when I apply for a job. I hate it when recruiters call and ask how many years I've done X. It's right there on the resume. If you don't read it, you're wasting my time, as well as your own, if you're doing hiring.
bduerst 7y ago
You're being downvoted but I've had the same experience as well. They bias interviews that are supposed to be performance based. Resumes are a carefully crafted signal paper targeted at getting past an algorithm, recruiter, and into an interview. They're chock full of brand names (both education and company) and keywords. There's also unconcious bias based on the person's last name, locations that they've lived in the past, and so on. I've found the best thing to do is skim their past job roles, to set expectations for where you can start with the level of difficulty in questions.
- walshemj 7y ago
  "last name" ?? In what way I could see some edge cases, which one where you thinking of ?
  - bduerst 7y ago
    Names are known to be a vector for bias in resumes: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873
Aeolun 7y ago
I don’t get it. Isn’t that the entire point of resumes?
walshemj 7y ago
Good job you postings as AC - other wise your employer would be a lot of peoples "call first" list. Btw that's the PC way of saying blacklisted.
perl4ever 7y ago
Less information means more bias. You may not have the bias that comes from misconceptions about the information on the resume, but now you have the bias that comes from assuming a "typical" resume whatever that is in your context.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
Biased with more information?

by avip 7y ago

josephorjoe 7y ago

This feels weird to me. If you have advertised a job and I've given you my resume, it is to give you some information you can use to avoid wasting your time and my time. Just like I would hope your advertisement is accurate and useful enough to let me decide if it is a good use of time for me to send you a resume (e.g., saw an ad for "react developer" -- got to the interview and they were looking for a "server side java dev" -- I mean -- wtf?). Not reading a resume before an interview feels... rude. It feels like the path that leads to you asking a Java/Go programmer to do a Javascript coding challenge in 50 minutes, which is a waste of everyone's time.

avip 7y ago
It is rude. People put lots of effort into resumes. But it's ruder to reject a candidate based on age, gender, martial status, education or lack thereof or doing non sw jobs in the past. I always talk on the phone before and that's where we both make sure the interview is of relevance.
- tristor 7y ago
  If you can't read someone's resume without rejecting them based on age, gender, marital status, education or lack thereof, or for their non-sw work history, then it sounds like you're not a very good person to be interviewing candidates. The concept of "unconscious bias" might be true in an academic sense, but in a very real way you should be treating people with respect regardless of their characteristics, especially during an interview process. Not reading someone's resume isn't just rude, it's supremely disrespectful. I take a completely different approach, because I have been on the receiving end of disrespectful interviews and I won't stand for it and I don't expect the candidates I interview to accept it either. I carefully read the resume and research the candidate far in advance to the interview. I only ask questions during the interview which are open-ended, not trivia questions, and are directly related to either the content of the candidate's resume or things we're actually doing day-to-day on my team. The dog and pony show interview style is intensely disrespectful and so is the idea that you won't even read a candidate's resume. I've walked out of interviews where both have happened, and I hope everyone on HN gets the personal confidence to do the same. I'm a professional, I expect to be treated like a professional, and I return that by treating those I interview like professionals. End of story.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    Being cognizant of unconscious bias doesn't make someone a bad interviewer, in fact, it makes for the opposite. It sounds like you've had some combative interviews in the past (it sucks - I've had them too) but that's not the same as being aware of biases.
    - tristor 7y ago
      There's a difference between being cognizant of unconscious bias and being disrespectful to your candidate. I am cognizant of unconscious bias, so cognizant that I know it plays a much smaller role in biased outcomes than conscious intended bias. I read candidate resumes and I treat candidates with respect. The parent is disrespectful to the candidates they interview and I am being charitable in taking their explanation about bias at face value.
  - avip 7y ago
    >it sounds like you're not a very good person to be interviewing candidates We agree on that one, but the alternatives are worse. Would you like to take my place interviewing? It's a time consuming task I'd love to delegate to someone more experienced.
    - GreenJelloShot 7y ago
      I would honestly love to take a job that was 100% focused on interviewing and hiring technical people. I have been through so many bad interviews (on both sides of the desk) that I think it really should be a dedicated position staffed by people who actually understand the major defects in the industry.
      - avip 7y ago
        You can always apply to triplebytes and get exactly such position :) <disclaimer: my affiliation with triplebytes is that they've rejected my application twice - possibly cementing parent suggestion that I'm underqualified to interview developers>
      - 7y ago
- nkrisc 7y ago
  > age, gender, martial status What resume has this information? This is all stuff you can infer from the interview itself.
  - GreenJelloShot 7y ago
    Yeah, age I can understand. People usually list their college degree along with the date of graduation, so you can usually make a good guess about their age. But, I have no idea how you gather gender or marital status from a resume.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      Most names are gendered. Can I tell 100% that Jane is female from the name? Of course not, but then I can’t tell with certainty that someone who graduated in 2011 is ~30 either. It’s fairly common in my experience for CVs from European candidates to have marital status/other family information (and often a photo!) on them. I don’t know why and I just ignore it.
      - nkrisc 7y ago
        Very true. I suppose I worded my earlier comment poorly. You can generally infer age and gender from one's name and education dates (of course, not always). But the point I was trying to make it that this would not be explicitly on there, particularly marital status. But looks like even there I'm wrong. Pictures on resumes? That's a new one for me.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Yeah. It was super weird the first time I saw it on >80% of resumes I was screening for a director position in Europe. I asked my HR contact over there and she didn’t seem to think it was unusual at all.
- detaro 7y ago
  Then don't have the interviewer read the resume, but have another person reading the resume give them the basic information about the expected skills.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Not reading resumes can be part of a process to efficiently discriminate by age, because it's precisely older people who have an interest in you reading a resume, because it's they who have important stuff there.
Aeolun 7y ago
> It feels like the path that leads to you asking a Java/Go programmer to do a Javascript coding challenge in 50 minutes, which is a waste of everyone's time. Depends, we always give someone a super small coding challenge (literally write 4 lines if you know how to, and the longest I’ve seen is something like 15), and any decent Java/Go dev could do that even if they had to learn JS on the spot (probably not necessary, but...). But yeah, I agree with your main point. Not reading a resume is rude.

TurkishPoptart 7y ago

What? Unbiased mind after reading a resume? I'm expecting you to read my resume when I apply for a job. I hate it when recruiters call and ask how many years I've done X. It's right there on the resume. If you don't read it, you're wasting my time, as well as your own, if you're doing hiring.

bduerst 7y ago

You're being downvoted but I've had the same experience as well. They bias interviews that are supposed to be performance based. Resumes are a carefully crafted signal paper targeted at getting past an algorithm, recruiter, and into an interview. They're chock full of brand names (both education and company) and keywords. There's also unconcious bias based on the person's last name, locations that they've lived in the past, and so on. I've found the best thing to do is skim their past job roles, to set expectations for where you can start with the level of difficulty in questions.

walshemj 7y ago
"last name" ?? In what way I could see some edge cases, which one where you thinking of ?
- bduerst 7y ago
  Names are known to be a vector for bias in resumes: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

Aeolun 7y ago

I don’t get it. Isn’t that the entire point of resumes?

walshemj 7y ago

Good job you postings as AC - other wise your employer would be a lot of peoples "call first" list. Btw that's the PC way of saying blacklisted.

perl4ever 7y ago

Less information means more bias. You may not have the bias that comes from misconceptions about the information on the resume, but now you have the bias that comes from assuming a "typical" resume whatever that is in your context.

mixmastamyk 7y ago

Biased with more information?