12 ms·

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from t

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging proxy wars for at least a decade in the DRC, specifically for mineral control. The problem needs to be addressed at the local level, not at the international purchasing level - this may make the tech giants purchase minerals from a new provider, but that is a cosmetic change that won't actually impact people on the ground in the DRC.

FussyZeus 7y ago
> I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. It's been designed to be hard to track. Just because the infrastructure is a little hit and miss and the people are overall poorer doesn't mean it's impossible to reliably manage supply lines. The problem is corporations from the "West" don't want to know where the stuff is coming from because they know damn well it's sweatshop labor, minors, political prisoners, and who knows what else. That's why it's so fucking cheap. Google knows my fucking shoe size at this point: if they, or Apple, or Samsung, or any other company wanted to know, they would know. The problem is they don't know because when people ask uncomfortable questions, they just shrug their shoulders and go "well we aren't responsible." Fuck that. They should be responsible.
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  > 'infrastructure is a little hit and miss' Lol. The problem isn't a lack of roads, it's the fact that parts of eastern DRC are still effectively war zones. This isn't tech companies not caring, this is an ongoing war, a government incapable of controlling the country (and hardly the good guys even where they do have control), rebel groups (which have control over minerals and need income) running their own proto-states, long-standing tribal conflicts, militarily powerful neighbors with vested interests in keeping the conflict going and DRC's precious resources flowing over the borders, a widespread Ebola outbreak, and hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing their homes. Google 'wanting to know' isn't going to solve the chaos in that part of the world that leads to the supply chain tracking problems.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had no proof of purchase, no previous registration, no paperwork from the former owner or dealer, I wouldn't be able to register this car. Yet, somehow, a multiBILLION dollar company can just buy material from warlords or whatever tribe in remote parts of China, and ship MILLIONS OF POUNDS of it out of that region, but nobody can get a fucking receipt? Are you kidding me?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - solidasparagus 7y ago
      What good do you think a receipt is in that part of the world? Of course they get a certificate of conflict-free production. And if you have a couple bucks in the DRC/Rwanda, you can get one too! Look at diamonds, gold and coltan as useful precedents that show how buyer-side pressure will not improve things unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether.
      - FussyZeus 7y ago
        > unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.
        solidasparagus 7y ago
        This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.
- vinniejames 7y ago
  The only reason "they know your shoe size" is because you carry around a $1000 phone that tracks your every move and spend all your disposable income through their platforms. The same cannot be said for the poor Cobalt miners, so no they can't just will that info into existence simply because they "want to know"
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    This is not some arcane magic here. This is making companies responsible for the vetting of their suppliers. Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. That's fucking it. That is NOTHING to a company like Apple, it would barely be a rounding error in their budget. And if the mine is in the midst of a warzone and you can't be sure if they aren't using prisoners or children? Then find a different goddamn mine.
    - naravara 7y ago
      >Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. No. Not at all. It takes more than that to vet suppliers in a place as developed as China. If you think that's all it takes in an ACTIVE WAR ZONE you're delusional.
      - moron4hire 7y ago
        His point is that, if it's too hard to vet, then you shouldn't be buying at all. No proof of no exploitation should be treated as proof of exploitation. I agree. Err on the side of caution. If it "can't be done", it'll be figured out soon enough when trade is completely cut off.
        naravara 7y ago
        >I agree. Err on the side of caution. If it "can't be done", it'll be figured out soon enough when trade is completely cut off. No. It took thousands of years of civilizational development to even create the state capacity to do this sort of regulation in the developed world. It doesn't just magically happen through some invisible hand nonsense. Governance requires concerted effort by a sovereign government. The only way it gets done is by forcing stability and creating a government, which is a responsibility I don't think you want to put in the hands of FAANG and Samsung.
brutt 7y ago
Hard ≠ impossible. If problem can be solved with money, then it's not a problem, it's expense.
mcv 7y ago
It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour. Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way. So these products being hard to track is no excuse. We should not allow the import of products where there's any uncertainty about their supply chain. Tech giants should have a responsibility to know where their minerals come from. And this is not just about electronics or about the DRC. I think we shouldn't let our football teams play in Qatar stadiums built by slaves. We shouldn't be importing clothes made by child labour. We shouldn't be importing from countries that don't respect the rights of workers. We're undermining our own freedom as well as our own economies by allowing this. We're indirectly abusing people in other countries, but we're also expecting out workers to compete with them. It's undermining everything we fought for over the past century.
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.
    - netcan 7y ago
      What do you consider grandstanding?
      - 7y ago
dv_dt 7y ago
Electronics manufacturers already have all sorts of tracking regulatory infrastructure and certifications for parts going into their BOM. Everything from other conflict materials, to limits on uses for component export/import limits because of trade sanctions, to conventional regulations on uses of materials like lead in solder, to some suppliers who won't supply to military or nuclear uses. The framework is there already, it's mostly a matter of bringing some focus to it for the particular matter of cobalt.
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  But efforts to prevent conflict materials from being sold have failed in the past. There's been a focus on coltan before cobalt and it sure seems like the minerals have moved from the DRC to Rwanda (see how Rwanda became the world's leading exporter of coltan after people stopped buying conflict coltan from DRC). Similarly, efforts to stop conflict diamonds and conflict gold have not found much success.
  - dv_dt 7y ago
    I'd agree the efforts have not cut off that kind of business 100% but they've been effective in reducing the amount of conflict business, as well as reducing their profitability making them do more work to put the items on the market. Conflict diamonds and gold are a different market framework than electronics components though - those items in particular have much different and arguably more varied sales avenues that make them more difficult to stop. Electronics components have an inherent complex testing quality and fewer channels for markets to move through so should be easier to control on a regulatory basis.
celticmusic 7y ago
> I don't think this makes much sense. Let me see if I can put it into terms you can understand. They prosecute people who look at child porn. Not because those people abused the children, but because those people create the demand that causes the producers to abuse children. You decrease the demand, you decrease the abuse. Or in another form. If you really want to stop illegal immigration, you go after the people employing them, not the illegals themselves. We used to do this and it used to be effective. There are an innumberable number of examples of going after the demand to affect the supply.
- sharpneli 7y ago
  Banning cobalt alltogether? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#Applications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#Applications You’d literally make usage of an element illegal due to that. For me it sounds bit of an overreaction. Also it would be more than tad unfair for the cobalt mines not in DRC to have to close up.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    this is a strawman and you should be ashamed of yourself. You cannot find any posts by me on this forum in which I've advocated banning Cobalt all together. Find a better response.
    - sharpneli 7y ago
      I misunderstood then due to the examples. As child porn is recognizeable. But cobalt is just cobalt. You have no way of telling where it came from. Humans have faces, fingerprints and genes that allow us to have documentation that yes this person is a citizen and not an illegal immigrant, so you cannot use documentation for one person to slip by another that easily. There is no such thing for cobalt. A document that states this 20 tons of cobalt is not dug up by kids applies just as well to a 20 tons that actually was dug up by kids. That issue was with blood diamonds. A semilegit mine sold it’s own diamonds and blood diamonds as it’s own.
dehrmann 7y ago
> The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track Commodities, in general. They're fungible, so cobalt from one supplier looks like cobalt from another supplier.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  Commodities are more trackable with detailed analysis then anyone might casually think. e.g. oil is a commodity but the signature of oil from certain regions is pretty visible by chemists, and one can force oil supply from trade restricted sources to at least try to mask the signature by mixing with other sources. Not perfect but you can raise the difficulty bar on commodity sourcing.
  - philipkglass 7y ago
    Cobalt has only one naturally occurring isotope, so I don't think you can use any tricks from chemistry or physics to track it back to the source after it has been separated from ore. Instead you need tamper-resistant supply chain documentation all the way back to the actual mine.
    - dv_dt 7y ago
      I'm not familiar w/ cobalt, but materials are rarely 100% pure. One might look at non-cobalt materials associated with the pure material and what ratios they're in? Again not perfect but something.
      - solidasparagus 7y ago
        I think one of the problems is that the cobalt doesn't reach component manufacturers until it's been through a series of smelters/refiners.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    Not only that, oil companies share these lines. They know exactly what % of the oil flowing through that pipe is company A vs company B. I know because I worked on some of the accounting software they use.
simmanian 7y ago
Just out of curiosity, do you know how regular people could know more about supply chains that are not hard to track?

FussyZeus 7y ago

> I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. It's been designed to be hard to track. Just because the infrastructure is a little hit and miss and the people are overall poorer doesn't mean it's impossible to reliably manage supply lines. The problem is corporations from the "West" don't want to know where the stuff is coming from because they know damn well it's sweatshop labor, minors, political prisoners, and who knows what else. That's why it's so fucking cheap. Google knows my fucking shoe size at this point: if they, or Apple, or Samsung, or any other company wanted to know, they would know. The problem is they don't know because when people ask uncomfortable questions, they just shrug their shoulders and go "well we aren't responsible." Fuck that. They should be responsible.

solidasparagus 7y ago
> 'infrastructure is a little hit and miss' Lol. The problem isn't a lack of roads, it's the fact that parts of eastern DRC are still effectively war zones. This isn't tech companies not caring, this is an ongoing war, a government incapable of controlling the country (and hardly the good guys even where they do have control), rebel groups (which have control over minerals and need income) running their own proto-states, long-standing tribal conflicts, militarily powerful neighbors with vested interests in keeping the conflict going and DRC's precious resources flowing over the borders, a widespread Ebola outbreak, and hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing their homes. Google 'wanting to know' isn't going to solve the chaos in that part of the world that leads to the supply chain tracking problems.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had no proof of purchase, no previous registration, no paperwork from the former owner or dealer, I wouldn't be able to register this car. Yet, somehow, a multiBILLION dollar company can just buy material from warlords or whatever tribe in remote parts of China, and ship MILLIONS OF POUNDS of it out of that region, but nobody can get a fucking receipt? Are you kidding me?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - solidasparagus 7y ago
    What good do you think a receipt is in that part of the world? Of course they get a certificate of conflict-free production. And if you have a couple bucks in the DRC/Rwanda, you can get one too! Look at diamonds, gold and coltan as useful precedents that show how buyer-side pressure will not improve things unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      > unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.
      - solidasparagus 7y ago
        This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.
vinniejames 7y ago
The only reason "they know your shoe size" is because you carry around a $1000 phone that tracks your every move and spend all your disposable income through their platforms. The same cannot be said for the poor Cobalt miners, so no they can't just will that info into existence simply because they "want to know"
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  This is not some arcane magic here. This is making companies responsible for the vetting of their suppliers. Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. That's fucking it. That is NOTHING to a company like Apple, it would barely be a rounding error in their budget. And if the mine is in the midst of a warzone and you can't be sure if they aren't using prisoners or children? Then find a different goddamn mine.
  - naravara 7y ago
    >Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. No. Not at all. It takes more than that to vet suppliers in a place as developed as China. If you think that's all it takes in an ACTIVE WAR ZONE you're delusional.
    - moron4hire 7y ago
      His point is that, if it's too hard to vet, then you shouldn't be buying at all. No proof of no exploitation should be treated as proof of exploitation. I agree. Err on the side of caution. If it "can't be done", it'll be figured out soon enough when trade is completely cut off.
      - naravara 7y ago
        >I agree. Err on the side of caution. If it "can't be done", it'll be figured out soon enough when trade is completely cut off. No. It took thousands of years of civilizational development to even create the state capacity to do this sort of regulation in the developed world. It doesn't just magically happen through some invisible hand nonsense. Governance requires concerted effort by a sovereign government. The only way it gets done is by forcing stability and creating a government, which is a responsibility I don't think you want to put in the hands of FAANG and Samsung.

brutt 7y ago

Hard ≠ impossible. If problem can be solved with money, then it's not a problem, it's expense.

mcv 7y ago

It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour. Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way. So these products being hard to track is no excuse. We should not allow the import of products where there's any uncertainty about their supply chain. Tech giants should have a responsibility to know where their minerals come from. And this is not just about electronics or about the DRC. I think we shouldn't let our football teams play in Qatar stadiums built by slaves. We shouldn't be importing clothes made by child labour. We shouldn't be importing from countries that don't respect the rights of workers. We're undermining our own freedom as well as our own economies by allowing this. We're indirectly abusing people in other countries, but we're also expecting out workers to compete with them. It's undermining everything we fought for over the past century.

solidasparagus 7y ago
I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.
  - netcan 7y ago
    What do you consider grandstanding?
    - 7y ago

dv_dt 7y ago

Electronics manufacturers already have all sorts of tracking regulatory infrastructure and certifications for parts going into their BOM. Everything from other conflict materials, to limits on uses for component export/import limits because of trade sanctions, to conventional regulations on uses of materials like lead in solder, to some suppliers who won't supply to military or nuclear uses. The framework is there already, it's mostly a matter of bringing some focus to it for the particular matter of cobalt.

solidasparagus 7y ago
But efforts to prevent conflict materials from being sold have failed in the past. There's been a focus on coltan before cobalt and it sure seems like the minerals have moved from the DRC to Rwanda (see how Rwanda became the world's leading exporter of coltan after people stopped buying conflict coltan from DRC). Similarly, efforts to stop conflict diamonds and conflict gold have not found much success.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  I'd agree the efforts have not cut off that kind of business 100% but they've been effective in reducing the amount of conflict business, as well as reducing their profitability making them do more work to put the items on the market. Conflict diamonds and gold are a different market framework than electronics components though - those items in particular have much different and arguably more varied sales avenues that make them more difficult to stop. Electronics components have an inherent complex testing quality and fewer channels for markets to move through so should be easier to control on a regulatory basis.

celticmusic 7y ago

> I don't think this makes much sense. Let me see if I can put it into terms you can understand. They prosecute people who look at child porn. Not because those people abused the children, but because those people create the demand that causes the producers to abuse children. You decrease the demand, you decrease the abuse. Or in another form. If you really want to stop illegal immigration, you go after the people employing them, not the illegals themselves. We used to do this and it used to be effective. There are an innumberable number of examples of going after the demand to affect the supply.

sharpneli 7y ago
Banning cobalt alltogether? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#Applications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#Applications You’d literally make usage of an element illegal due to that. For me it sounds bit of an overreaction. Also it would be more than tad unfair for the cobalt mines not in DRC to have to close up.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  this is a strawman and you should be ashamed of yourself. You cannot find any posts by me on this forum in which I've advocated banning Cobalt all together. Find a better response.
  - sharpneli 7y ago
    I misunderstood then due to the examples. As child porn is recognizeable. But cobalt is just cobalt. You have no way of telling where it came from. Humans have faces, fingerprints and genes that allow us to have documentation that yes this person is a citizen and not an illegal immigrant, so you cannot use documentation for one person to slip by another that easily. There is no such thing for cobalt. A document that states this 20 tons of cobalt is not dug up by kids applies just as well to a 20 tons that actually was dug up by kids. That issue was with blood diamonds. A semilegit mine sold it’s own diamonds and blood diamonds as it’s own.

dehrmann 7y ago

> The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track Commodities, in general. They're fungible, so cobalt from one supplier looks like cobalt from another supplier.

dv_dt 7y ago
Commodities are more trackable with detailed analysis then anyone might casually think. e.g. oil is a commodity but the signature of oil from certain regions is pretty visible by chemists, and one can force oil supply from trade restricted sources to at least try to mask the signature by mixing with other sources. Not perfect but you can raise the difficulty bar on commodity sourcing.
- philipkglass 7y ago
  Cobalt has only one naturally occurring isotope, so I don't think you can use any tricks from chemistry or physics to track it back to the source after it has been separated from ore. Instead you need tamper-resistant supply chain documentation all the way back to the actual mine.
  - dv_dt 7y ago
    I'm not familiar w/ cobalt, but materials are rarely 100% pure. One might look at non-cobalt materials associated with the pure material and what ratios they're in? Again not perfect but something.
    - solidasparagus 7y ago
      I think one of the problems is that the cobalt doesn't reach component manufacturers until it's been through a series of smelters/refiners.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  Not only that, oil companies share these lines. They know exactly what % of the oil flowing through that pipe is company A vs company B. I know because I worked on some of the accounting software they use.

simmanian 7y ago

Just out of curiosity, do you know how regular people could know more about supply chains that are not hard to track?