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> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric. The US jailed 70,000 migrant children this year. I doubt history will smile on that.
by ceautery 7y ago
> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric.
The US jailed 70,000 migrant children this year. I doubt history will smile on that.
- jordanpg 7y agoThe fact that we put other humans in cages for any reason is probably unforgivable on a long enough timeline, especially for non-violent crimes.
- jtx22 7y agoProtecting the sovereignty of your country will be paramount in the future. Future generations will look back at this borderless craze.. as truly insane.
- danharaj 7y agoStrict immigration control is a relatively modern phenomenon, and you should reevaluate your viewpoint if you find it so easy to justify putting children in cages. Scratch that, justify other people putting children in cages. Most people who support these policies wouldn't have the stomach to do the dirty work themselves.
- deogeo 7y agoThe present state of migration is also a modern phenomenon - otherwise, countries wouldn't be trending from more towards less homogeneous, but would already be in a 'steady state'.
- zaccus 7y agoNot true. People have been migrating from place to place for all of recorded history. Cultural homogeneity is nothing more than a "good ole days" fallacy; it's never really been a thing anywhere, except in the most remote parts of the world.
- deogeo 7y agoLook at the "Population by country of birth 1900-2016" graph for Sweden [1]. It is at ~100% in 1900, and ~82% in 2016. The US went from 87.9% white in 1900, to 72.4% in 2010 [2]. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such demographic histories for other countries. But search for "US/Europe becoming more diverse", and you'll find countless articles, from mainstream publications, asserting this. So to claim otherwise is extremely fringe. And there is mathematically no way for a place to be becoming more diverse, while keeping historically constant migration. If the migration hadn't changed in some way, then it would already be diverse. It also means that, if it's becoming more diverse, that it was less diverse, i.e. more homogeneous, in the past. Looking at the present, China is 91.6% ethnically Han [3], and Hungary is 93.5% ethnically Hungarian [4]. So unless you think China or Hungary or US in 1900-1970 are "the most remote parts of the world", then no, homogeneity is provably not a fallacy. So yes, "People have been migrating from place to place for all of recorded history", but both the rate and nature of this migration changed, and just a quick glance at the headlines of virtually any news source is enough to tell you this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#History [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary
- danharaj 7y agoYou realize civilization is older than 120 years right?
- deogeo 7y agoSo your thesis is ~100 years ago was some freak historical period when countries were mostly homogeneous (compared to current day. Please don't cite e.g. Czechs and Slovaks living in the same country as diversity comparable to current day), but throughout the rest of history, diversity was much greater. Do you have sources to back this up? And how did those countries become homogeneous, then?
- jordanpg 7y agoMaybe "the sovereignty of your country" is an obsolete concept that we inherited from the Middle Ages that should go away.
- scarmig 7y agoThe Middle Ages didn't have anything like borders in our contemporary sense. It's a modern invention that only came into full form in the 20th century.
- jtx22 7y agoI'd suggest removing your front door and letting anyone walk in and live with you. Tell me how that works out for your family.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago>Protecting the sovereignty of your country will be paramount in the future. Well that would be a giant step back from all the gains that have been made post WWII with the development of the United Nations, UN Security Council, UN Charter, and the entire body of international laws which is founded on sovereign nations voluntarily subjecting themselves to these international law, treaties, customs and norms.
- jtx22 7y agoThe United Nations is cancer. I'd suggest you look into Localism.
- zaccus 7y agoHow has the sovereignty of your country materially benefited you?
- carierx1 7y agoThe ability for my country to forecast expenses and protect the safety and security of its citizens -- to name a couple of examples.
- take_a_breath 7y ago==Future generations will look back at this borderless craze.. as truly insane.== Why will future generations be interested in things that never existed?
- krageon 7y agoThe current world doesn't even smile on it
- weberc2 7y agoI want to keep this civil and perhaps learn something, but what is the specific objection with respect to complaints of detention? Do folks just want better detention conditions or are we advocating for giving citizenship to everyone who wants it? EDIT: Why the downvotes? I'm asking a genuine question. How did I manage to offend?
- danharaj 7y agoDon't be coy. Your question comes with the framing you choose for it; people would rather you be more forthright about it.
- weberc2 7y agoI'm not being coy, I don't know what the specific concerns are. I've been quite explicit about this.
- danharaj 7y agoWhich means that you're taking as the neutral stance to not have a concern with arbitrary detention of asylum seekers. You have implicitly taken a position on who has the burden of justifying themselves. Do you see how people can take issue with that since it violates international law concerning the rights of asylum seekers?
- weberc2 7y agoI'm not taking a neutral stance. I don't understand the issue and I'm asking for clarification on one of the points. I'm not passing judgment on either position nor am I asking anyone to "justify themselves". What a bizarre accusation...
- jsutton 7y agoLiterally no one is proposing giving citizenship to everyone who wants it, so your 'genuine question' comes off as completely insincere at best.
- tasogare 7y agoYou forget to say these kids didn’t magically lend in jail. They were brought there by their parents that purposely broke immigration laws. They possibly even did it with the idea of appealing to emotion of US citizens to get away with it.
- ABeeSea 7y agoApplying for asylum at the border isn’t illegal.
- sfkdjf9j3j 7y agoThey aren't breaking immigration laws as they are asylum seekers.
- drocer88 7y agoThey are economic migrants, otherwise they'd apply for "asylum" with Mexico.
- oh_sigh 7y agoPretty much everyone is going to say they are seeking asylum if they are caught.
- take_a_breath 7y agoJust like anyone is going to say they are innocent if arrested. Luckily, we have a process to determine validity.
- magic_beans 7y agoThis country was literally founded as a refuge for asylum-seekers.
- oh_sigh 7y agoThat's not even remotely true.
- wholepointofcc 7y agoWhat responsibility is bore by the parents who willingly took them into a country where they know they would have a high likelihood of being mistreated?
- thomk 7y agoCan you be sure their parents brought them over? Also, if they did, you can be sure their motivation wasn't to antagonize American citizens.
- wholepointofcc 7y agoI didn't say it was. I'm saying migrating illegally to the USA is a terrible choice. Hell, legally migrating is already a questionable choice. There are better places to fight for your life.
- ceautery 7y agoQ) "Why did you come here if you knew it would be risky?" A) "I had no way to provide food for my family, and didn't want to be killed by drug cartels."
- wholepointofcc 7y agoOk, you took a gamble, to illegally go into a place that ostensively doesn't want you. The gamble didn't pay off, tough luck. What the USA is doing is inhumane (news at 11) but I have very little sympathy for people who put their children at risk like that. I'd turn into a criminal before putting my children at risk like that. Maybe this makes me a worse person. It certainly makes me a person whose children are not in involuntary semi-permanent detention.
- hobolobo 7y agoSuch an ugly response. Their situation is that their children are already at risk. I don't think you grasp the severity of the situation in Mexico. Perhaps you should go strut your tough stuff over the border. The state dept advise against it due to the high levels of violence and kidnapping. That wouldn't matter to a would-be criminal though.
- wholepointofcc 7y agoHere's a list of countries Mexicans (just an example, I know there are people from elsewhere coming in thru y'alls southern border) don't need Visas to enter: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Visa_requirements_for_Mexico_citizens.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Visa_req... It literally includes all other countries in the American continent except for Guyana. Immigrate to these countries instead. Thank me later. Why would someone illegally immigrate to the USA in this day and age is beyond my comprehension.
- deogeo 7y agoThe US is of course an evil white supremacist patriarchy, yet living anywhere else is akin to a death sentence for Latin Americans.
- UI_at_80x24 7y ago>Why would someone illegally immigrate to the USA in this day and age is beyond my comprehension. Specifically to respond to this misconception: ALL of the people from "the caravan", ALL of the parents of the 70,000 children that were locked up and taken away FOLLOWED THE LAW and DID EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE TOLD THEM TO DO. They were seeking asylum and political refuge. They followed our law to receive protection/shelter. Any other dialog is pure rhetoric and Trump based fear mongering.
- wholepointofcc 7y ago> They were seeking asylum and political refuge Asylum and political refuge? Cause you're poor and from a violent place? Might as well bring in the whole of south America then... > Any other dialog is pure rhetoric and Trump based fear mongering. I don't have a horse in this race. I'm a south-American immigrant myself. I didn't vote nor care for y'alls Orange Leader. I just feel personal responsibility shouldn't be downplayed.
- GrumpyNl 7y agoAh, the Trump card.
- 7y ago
- porlex 7y agoOr even the general incarceration rate amongst adults.