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Unpopular opinion: it's not a good career unless you are the best of the best. IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable

by d-d 7y ago

Unpopular opinion: it's not a good career unless you are the best of the best. IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable, and lets you have a life outside work. In software the hours are increasing to no real benefit, and free time is burnt just keeping with the times. The evolution of tools, best practices and high availability of quality knowledge has made it trivial to spin up new hires which makes everyone highly expendable; not to mention that there are now millions of unwashed masses happy to accept lower wages just for their chance. There was a HN post a while back where some guy was begging to pay for a code job. What does that tell you? Software workers are also now pitted against a global market with outsourcing and programs like H-1B which has raised the bar by increasing the pool of highly educated candidates and people who commit resume fraud. They're likely also more willing to work long hours for less pay just to be in the US. Software wages have also stagnated for ten years.

jdhn 7y ago
Interesting take. Personally, I would say that even as a middling developer, you'll be earning more than the vast, vast majority of blue collar workers, and probably putting less wear and tear on your body.
vsareto 7y ago
This is a pretty extremist point of view. It's kind of like saying you shouldn't drive a regular car because you're not a Formula 1 driver. There are plenty of companies who value working a max of 40 hours per week. If you are the best of the best, that isn't going to be a good fit for you. Much of the visa fraud is probably large companies that have a regular amount of visa hires in the first place. A mid-size company that has zero H-1Bs is not likely to have resume fraudsters through that channel. This post paints every business as some sort of vicious meat grinder and the reality just isn't true. You have to avoid bad companies just like with every other field. Even if you are expendable and get let go from a single company, it's not a death knell for your career. Explain the situation, and that it wasn't a good fit, and try to highlight other strengths during the interview.
codingslave 7y ago
This is my opinion exactly. Programming is great if you are in the top 1% maybe 2%, you can make 400k - 800k as just a senior engineer. Everyone else is fighting to keep their knowledge base current, working for companies that do not value them, etc. Basically if you cant pass hard algorithms interviews with a bit of study, you should leave the field and do something else.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Not even hard algorithms, you just have to study leetcode problems these days. There is a website that aggregates them and only so many problems people can think of, they can easily be prepped even by a bad programmer.
HashHishBang 7y ago
This isn't just unpopular, it's ignorantly wrong. I've done blue collar work and CS work. Also the whole romanticizing of busting one's ass pisses me off to no end. > IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable, and lets you have a life outside work. In software the hours are increasing to no real benefit, and free time is burnt just keeping with the times. This is all but objectively false for journeyman level. As the new guy on site you better believe you aren't taking it easy. Hauling shingles, hauling siding, digging ditches, doing whatever the older guys don't/physically can't do anymore. Wanna know why they can't do it anymore? Because that's what they spent their 20s doing. Sure when you get home you're not thinking about your trade, most of the time, but it's not like you're free and clear. You didn't just spend 8 hours sitting in a chair thinking about problems. You just spent 8 hours on your feet doing work. Now after work you're covered in dirty/sweat/paint/etc. Gotta clean up before you can relax. Granted you don't have to study the new JS framework in vogue, but then again neither do I. Though on the flip side my job doesn't leave me worn out physically and unable to enjoy free time. >The evolution of tools, best practices and high availability of quality knowledge has made it trivial to spin up new hires which makes everyone highly expendable; not to mention that there are now millions of unwashed masses happy to accept lower wages just for their chance. I... what? Are you suggesting knowledge work is somehow easier to teach to people than a trade? That the tens of thousands of home-repair, car repair, plumbing, siding, painting, etc, etc videos for blue collar work don't exist? That somehow these are inaccessible to the aforementioned 'unwashed masses'? > There was a HN post a while back where some guy was begging to pay for a code job. What does that tell you? That there was an outlier? > Software workers are also now pitted against a global market with outsourcing and programs like H-1B which has raised the bar by increasing the pool of highly educated candidates and people who commit resume fraud. This is literally the "they're taking our jobs" line with different vocabulary. And based on what OP says about their credentials most blue collar work wouldn't take them due to over qualification. > They're likely also more willing to work long hours for less pay just to be in the US. Software wages have also stagnated for ten years. Whee dog whistles. I hate everything about this post.
- corporate_shi11 7y ago
  You hate the post, but the post is factually accurate. H1B abuse is indeed taking jobs from people and giving them to low wage workers who drive down wages for everyone.
bergerjac 7y ago
> Software wages have also stagnated for ten years. Where did you get that data? > everyone [is] highly expendable even the best of the best? Anyone, in any industry, who fails to adjust to The Market, will be expended, because their production value drops below break-even. Toys "R" Us went bankrupt because parents can be riding the elevator, sitting on the john... and buy the exact toy their child wants...
CobrastanJorji 7y ago
> IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and-- Your opinion is wrong. Programming gigs, especially at the giant tech companies, are way, way easier than blue collar work. Blue collar work, especially skilled trade work, is a fine career option, but not because it's easy.
- briga 7y ago
  Programming and blue collar work are two different types of work, requiring different skill-sets that not everyone has. Ask your average construction worker to write a web app and no doubt they would find it very difficult. Ask your average programmer to build a house and they would also find it challenging. Both types of work can be exhausting, it's just that one is mentally exhausting and the other is physically exhausting.
  - to1y 7y ago
    Difference is you can learn everything you need to build a house in a week. You'll make a couple mistakes, you might be off by a little bit, but it really is a lot simpler than the layman thinks. Personally I have found repetitive, physically straining work to be extremely mentally exhausting but in a worse way; There are next to no challenging problems but you are forced to keep your mind on the task with all sorts of pains and aches. At the end of the day though it's a lot easier to walk away from your work, and you know you've always got a job.
lucb1e 7y ago
> IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable Did you ever do blue collar work as well as software engineering? Because I have no idea in which version of this world physical labor is preferable over a chill 9-5 desk job that typically comes with a higher salary. Unless free medical issues is your thing, then physical labor is absolutely the way to go. I did hear some horror stories of programming jobs in Spain where someone got unlucky with their employers, maybe this is based on one or two of such stories or experiences? I'm sure there are also good workplaces in blue collar, even if they're few and far between, you might have gotten unlucky in software development and lucky in blue collar. I'm honestly wondering if your comment is part of an experiment with whether a thoughtful-sounding but incorrect comment, starting with a disclaimer like "unpopular opinion" to make it sound like an opinion rather than a statement, can be accepted by the community as correct.
- momokoko 7y ago
  The point is that in a high wage country it is actually more difficult to outsource, or h-1b a "blue collar" job than a software job. Therefore it will always have significantly less competition and downward pressure on income. I personally switched out of software not too long ago and could not agree more about how much time I enjoy not thinking about work or my career and instead spending it on my personal projects and my family and friends. Obviously I make a lot less money and I have the luxury of not having a family to support, but I certainly would say that the day-to-day life of my blue collar job is significantly better, for me, than my previous software job.
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  A job does not become 'chill' just because you get to sit on your arse in a chair. There is plenty of stress in 'office jobs', enough to lead people to suicide, drugs, and dying of exhaustion - in UK that happened to an unpaid intern in banking. Your mind is a thing in itself and the social environment matters much more than whether you get to sit. I am quite happily to do weeks of home repairs, soldering. Electronics assembly, etc. Ofcourse thats not hard physical labour, but neither is most blue collar work.
gonzo41 7y ago
IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable. Untill you turn 50 and your body and joints turn to dust. I had a few blue collar job before tech, offices are terrible places but industry environments have their big downsides.
TrackerFF 7y ago
Before, and during my college years, I worked some pretty gnarly manual labor jobs. From decent blue-collar trade jobs, to downright digging ditches, longshoreman, to a gopher on construction sites. I can tell you this, there were some recurring themes at those places: - Injuries - Work never stops, no mater what weather - People in their 30s getting college degrees because that's the only way to get promoted in a company, unless your manager just happens to kneel over in the near future. - Constant stress of getting contracts. Blue-collar work can be extremely seasonal. - Did I say injuries? Yeah. Stress injuries will start popping up sooner or later. I don't know a single electrician or plumber that hasn't had some type of injury related to their working positions (shoulders, neck, arms,etc.)
- andrewem 7y ago
  On the topic of the physical toll taken on workers (and their families) by manual labor jobs, OSHA says "Out of 4,674 worker fatalities in private industry in calendar year 2017, 971 or 20.7% were in construction — that is, one in five worker deaths last year were in construction." Probably the most physically dangerous part of a programming job is getting there (car crashes etc). https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html

by d-d 7y ago

jdhn 7y ago

Interesting take. Personally, I would say that even as a middling developer, you'll be earning more than the vast, vast majority of blue collar workers, and probably putting less wear and tear on your body.

vsareto 7y ago

This is a pretty extremist point of view. It's kind of like saying you shouldn't drive a regular car because you're not a Formula 1 driver. There are plenty of companies who value working a max of 40 hours per week. If you are the best of the best, that isn't going to be a good fit for you. Much of the visa fraud is probably large companies that have a regular amount of visa hires in the first place. A mid-size company that has zero H-1Bs is not likely to have resume fraudsters through that channel. This post paints every business as some sort of vicious meat grinder and the reality just isn't true. You have to avoid bad companies just like with every other field. Even if you are expendable and get let go from a single company, it's not a death knell for your career. Explain the situation, and that it wasn't a good fit, and try to highlight other strengths during the interview.

codingslave 7y ago

This is my opinion exactly. Programming is great if you are in the top 1% maybe 2%, you can make 400k - 800k as just a senior engineer. Everyone else is fighting to keep their knowledge base current, working for companies that do not value them, etc. Basically if you cant pass hard algorithms interviews with a bit of study, you should leave the field and do something else.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Not even hard algorithms, you just have to study leetcode problems these days. There is a website that aggregates them and only so many problems people can think of, they can easily be prepped even by a bad programmer.

HashHishBang 7y ago

This isn't just unpopular, it's ignorantly wrong. I've done blue collar work and CS work. Also the whole romanticizing of busting one's ass pisses me off to no end. > IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable, and lets you have a life outside work. In software the hours are increasing to no real benefit, and free time is burnt just keeping with the times. This is all but objectively false for journeyman level. As the new guy on site you better believe you aren't taking it easy. Hauling shingles, hauling siding, digging ditches, doing whatever the older guys don't/physically can't do anymore. Wanna know why they can't do it anymore? Because that's what they spent their 20s doing. Sure when you get home you're not thinking about your trade, most of the time, but it's not like you're free and clear. You didn't just spend 8 hours sitting in a chair thinking about problems. You just spent 8 hours on your feet doing work. Now after work you're covered in dirty/sweat/paint/etc. Gotta clean up before you can relax. Granted you don't have to study the new JS framework in vogue, but then again neither do I. Though on the flip side my job doesn't leave me worn out physically and unable to enjoy free time. >The evolution of tools, best practices and high availability of quality knowledge has made it trivial to spin up new hires which makes everyone highly expendable; not to mention that there are now millions of unwashed masses happy to accept lower wages just for their chance. I... what? Are you suggesting knowledge work is somehow easier to teach to people than a trade? That the tens of thousands of home-repair, car repair, plumbing, siding, painting, etc, etc videos for blue collar work don't exist? That somehow these are inaccessible to the aforementioned 'unwashed masses'? > There was a HN post a while back where some guy was begging to pay for a code job. What does that tell you? That there was an outlier? > Software workers are also now pitted against a global market with outsourcing and programs like H-1B which has raised the bar by increasing the pool of highly educated candidates and people who commit resume fraud. This is literally the "they're taking our jobs" line with different vocabulary. And based on what OP says about their credentials most blue collar work wouldn't take them due to over qualification. > They're likely also more willing to work long hours for less pay just to be in the US. Software wages have also stagnated for ten years. Whee dog whistles. I hate everything about this post.

corporate_shi11 7y ago
You hate the post, but the post is factually accurate. H1B abuse is indeed taking jobs from people and giving them to low wage workers who drive down wages for everyone.

bergerjac 7y ago

> Software wages have also stagnated for ten years. Where did you get that data? > everyone [is] highly expendable even the best of the best? Anyone, in any industry, who fails to adjust to The Market, will be expended, because their production value drops below break-even. Toys "R" Us went bankrupt because parents can be riding the elevator, sitting on the john... and buy the exact toy their child wants...

CobrastanJorji 7y ago

> IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and-- Your opinion is wrong. Programming gigs, especially at the giant tech companies, are way, way easier than blue collar work. Blue collar work, especially skilled trade work, is a fine career option, but not because it's easy.

briga 7y ago
Programming and blue collar work are two different types of work, requiring different skill-sets that not everyone has. Ask your average construction worker to write a web app and no doubt they would find it very difficult. Ask your average programmer to build a house and they would also find it challenging. Both types of work can be exhausting, it's just that one is mentally exhausting and the other is physically exhausting.
- to1y 7y ago
  Difference is you can learn everything you need to build a house in a week. You'll make a couple mistakes, you might be off by a little bit, but it really is a lot simpler than the layman thinks. Personally I have found repetitive, physically straining work to be extremely mentally exhausting but in a worse way; There are next to no challenging problems but you are forced to keep your mind on the task with all sorts of pains and aches. At the end of the day though it's a lot easier to walk away from your work, and you know you've always got a job.

lucb1e 7y ago

> IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable Did you ever do blue collar work as well as software engineering? Because I have no idea in which version of this world physical labor is preferable over a chill 9-5 desk job that typically comes with a higher salary. Unless free medical issues is your thing, then physical labor is absolutely the way to go. I did hear some horror stories of programming jobs in Spain where someone got unlucky with their employers, maybe this is based on one or two of such stories or experiences? I'm sure there are also good workplaces in blue collar, even if they're few and far between, you might have gotten unlucky in software development and lucky in blue collar. I'm honestly wondering if your comment is part of an experiment with whether a thoughtful-sounding but incorrect comment, starting with a disclaimer like "unpopular opinion" to make it sound like an opinion rather than a statement, can be accepted by the community as correct.

momokoko 7y ago
The point is that in a high wage country it is actually more difficult to outsource, or h-1b a "blue collar" job than a software job. Therefore it will always have significantly less competition and downward pressure on income. I personally switched out of software not too long ago and could not agree more about how much time I enjoy not thinking about work or my career and instead spending it on my personal projects and my family and friends. Obviously I make a lot less money and I have the luxury of not having a family to support, but I certainly would say that the day-to-day life of my blue collar job is significantly better, for me, than my previous software job.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
A job does not become 'chill' just because you get to sit on your arse in a chair. There is plenty of stress in 'office jobs', enough to lead people to suicide, drugs, and dying of exhaustion - in UK that happened to an unpaid intern in banking. Your mind is a thing in itself and the social environment matters much more than whether you get to sit. I am quite happily to do weeks of home repairs, soldering. Electronics assembly, etc. Ofcourse thats not hard physical labour, but neither is most blue collar work.

gonzo41 7y ago

IMO blue collar work is a better option because it's easier work and more stable. Untill you turn 50 and your body and joints turn to dust. I had a few blue collar job before tech, offices are terrible places but industry environments have their big downsides.

TrackerFF 7y ago

Before, and during my college years, I worked some pretty gnarly manual labor jobs. From decent blue-collar trade jobs, to downright digging ditches, longshoreman, to a gopher on construction sites. I can tell you this, there were some recurring themes at those places: - Injuries - Work never stops, no mater what weather - People in their 30s getting college degrees because that's the only way to get promoted in a company, unless your manager just happens to kneel over in the near future. - Constant stress of getting contracts. Blue-collar work can be extremely seasonal. - Did I say injuries? Yeah. Stress injuries will start popping up sooner or later. I don't know a single electrician or plumber that hasn't had some type of injury related to their working positions (shoulders, neck, arms,etc.)

andrewem 7y ago
On the topic of the physical toll taken on workers (and their families) by manual labor jobs, OSHA says "Out of 4,674 worker fatalities in private industry in calendar year 2017, 971 or 20.7% were in construction — that is, one in five worker deaths last year were in construction." Probably the most physically dangerous part of a programming job is getting there (car crashes etc). https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html