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“Should we discover that quantum theory is not fundamentally random” This would be a terrifying revelation on a personal and existential level.

sysbin 7y ago
How so, can you expand on what would be terrifying on a personal and existential level for you? I've encountered a few people that will cite quantum theory when it comes to discussions about questioning if one has free will. I cannot even imagine how quantum theory gives a us true free will and without one's will just being the outcome of the system we reside in.
- mberning 7y ago
  I am OK with the thought that the the universe sprang into existence, and through some form of randomness or chance, things played out on this planet that allowed for life and for me to exist on it. Now go back to step one and assume that, even on an atomic level, there is no chance, no randomness. Given all of the preconditions, we get this outcome every single time. Then I have to reconsider why is there even the illusion of choice. Why should I even write this comment. It’s crazy.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    > Then I have to reconsider why is there even the illusion of choice. Why should I even write this comment. I think the answer is society conditions us to assume we have choice by how society is structured and how society functions. You writing the comment is just me being an external force upon you and triggering it from all the previous external forces that made you eventually react the way you did. Even if everything isn't random, a lot of what people like to wish for & believe, can in fact come true but it's hard for me to rationalize it. Other than an outside our universe deterministic observer needing to exist.
  - outlace 7y ago
    How would random motion of atoms give you any more free choice than deterministic motion of atoms? Personally, fundamental randomness is more disturbing to me because it implies a-causality, i.e. that at the smallest scales things happen for no reason at all and would be unexplainable in principle.
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    With determinism you determine the choice by thinking and finding the best option, at least it's properly your choice. With indeterminism you don't determine anything, because the choice is not determined by anything, it's just a random process independent from you.
    - nateferrero 7y ago
      What is doing the choosing, your thalamus?
      - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
        The person.
knzhou 7y ago
Terrifying revelations comes for cheap these days. Plenty of people say that the opposite of that is terrifying as well. I figure if I'm going to be terrified either way, I might as well not be!
- mberning 7y ago
  It seems to me that most people intuitively know that there is a large amount of chance and “unknowns” in life and the universe. The find out the opposite is true would be a very big deal.
  - BookPage 7y ago
    Is it though? For all intents and purposes a person's life is still full of unknowns and you might as well chalk your line to chance anyway?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
throwaway713 7y ago
> This would be a terrifying revelation on a personal and existential level. Why is that? I believe the universe is fully deterministic (i.e., no such thing as "true" randomness), yet I also don't think that rules out free will. Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible.
- harmoat 7y ago
  > Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible. How?
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    If you don't require free will to be supernatural.
    - nateferrero 7y ago
      Right, will is a natural, deterministic feature
  - gtr32x 7y ago
    If "free will" is only a subjective feeling and not an objective state
  - contravariant 7y ago
    Determinism just means that your decisions are the inevitable result of the past. This doesn't mean it's not your decision. The opposite, non-determinism, means that your decisions aren't fully determined by your own past and experiences, which to me sounds like a greater violation of free will.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible. Under the standard definitions, they are; if will is strictly determined by other material facts, it is not free. If you adopt unusual definitions for one or the other, they may not be, but then you aren't talking about the same thing other people are when you use the terms.
cygx 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism
nateferrero 7y ago
I discovered this on lsd. I could see exactly where it was random and where it wasn’t.

sysbin 7y ago

How so, can you expand on what would be terrifying on a personal and existential level for you? I've encountered a few people that will cite quantum theory when it comes to discussions about questioning if one has free will. I cannot even imagine how quantum theory gives a us true free will and without one's will just being the outcome of the system we reside in.

mberning 7y ago
I am OK with the thought that the the universe sprang into existence, and through some form of randomness or chance, things played out on this planet that allowed for life and for me to exist on it. Now go back to step one and assume that, even on an atomic level, there is no chance, no randomness. Given all of the preconditions, we get this outcome every single time. Then I have to reconsider why is there even the illusion of choice. Why should I even write this comment. It’s crazy.
- sysbin 7y ago
  > Then I have to reconsider why is there even the illusion of choice. Why should I even write this comment. I think the answer is society conditions us to assume we have choice by how society is structured and how society functions. You writing the comment is just me being an external force upon you and triggering it from all the previous external forces that made you eventually react the way you did. Even if everything isn't random, a lot of what people like to wish for & believe, can in fact come true but it's hard for me to rationalize it. Other than an outside our universe deterministic observer needing to exist.
- outlace 7y ago
  How would random motion of atoms give you any more free choice than deterministic motion of atoms? Personally, fundamental randomness is more disturbing to me because it implies a-causality, i.e. that at the smallest scales things happen for no reason at all and would be unexplainable in principle.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  With determinism you determine the choice by thinking and finding the best option, at least it's properly your choice. With indeterminism you don't determine anything, because the choice is not determined by anything, it's just a random process independent from you.
  - nateferrero 7y ago
    What is doing the choosing, your thalamus?
    - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
      The person.

knzhou 7y ago

Terrifying revelations comes for cheap these days. Plenty of people say that the opposite of that is terrifying as well. I figure if I'm going to be terrified either way, I might as well not be!

mberning 7y ago
It seems to me that most people intuitively know that there is a large amount of chance and “unknowns” in life and the universe. The find out the opposite is true would be a very big deal.
- BookPage 7y ago
  Is it though? For all intents and purposes a person's life is still full of unknowns and you might as well chalk your line to chance anyway?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

throwaway713 7y ago

> This would be a terrifying revelation on a personal and existential level. Why is that? I believe the universe is fully deterministic (i.e., no such thing as "true" randomness), yet I also don't think that rules out free will. Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible.

harmoat 7y ago
> Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible. How?
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  If you don't require free will to be supernatural.
  - nateferrero 7y ago
    Right, will is a natural, deterministic feature
- gtr32x 7y ago
  If "free will" is only a subjective feeling and not an objective state
- contravariant 7y ago
  Determinism just means that your decisions are the inevitable result of the past. This doesn't mean it's not your decision. The opposite, non-determinism, means that your decisions aren't fully determined by your own past and experiences, which to me sounds like a greater violation of free will.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Free will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible. Under the standard definitions, they are; if will is strictly determined by other material facts, it is not free. If you adopt unusual definitions for one or the other, they may not be, but then you aren't talking about the same thing other people are when you use the terms.

cygx 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

nateferrero 7y ago

I discovered this on lsd. I could see exactly where it was random and where it wasn’t.