4 ms·

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or yo

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or your favourite linux distribution on it and it will work (albeit potentially quite slowly depending on the hardware). Are there any good reasons why Android and iOS are so much worse in this regard?

wishinghand 7y ago
The market will bear it. Especially in the age of subsidized phones people didn’t mind the cost as much. This may change with $1000+ flagship phones.
- cletus 7y ago
  This is the area where Apple now sucks, hard. Go back 5-10 years ago the the Macbook Air (not the original form ~2008 but the second one from 2010-2011) was an awesome piece of hardware. I mean it still had soldered RAM (I think?) and lacked upgradeability but it was cheap and good. Apple's current leadership didn't like this so we end up with useless features like the Touch Bar, which exist for one reason and one reason only: to drive up the ASP (average selling price) of Macbooks. The same thing has happened to iPhones. The last iPhone I bought was the 6S 4 years ago and I think it was $649? Expensive but not ridiculously so. Like paying that every 3 years wasn't terrible. But now? The 11 Pro is >$1000. WTF? And these things keep getting worse as they add features no one wants or needs to drive up the ASP (eg Force Touch). Oh and current iPhones use FaceID which is terrible. The false negative rate is really high and having no home button actually sucks. For example, you used to get to the home screen by pressing it. Now you need to swipe up. But which direction you have to swipe up from depends on the orientation of the app you're using. That may not be obvious. It sucks. But I don't want to pay $1000+ for a phone with a battery that noticeably degrades in 2-3 years. To hell with that. I'd be tempted to buy the iPhone 8 (the last one with Touch ID) but for a now 2 year old model the price is unjustifiably high as they want to drive you to buy the 11 or at least the XR.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    > The last iPhone I bought was the 6S 4 years ago and I think it was $649 But now? The 11 Pro is $1000. WTF? Ridiculous argument. Apple still makes a current-generation phone roughly on par with the price that you found acceptable. Just because they also added a more expensive mode does not in any way discount that fact.
    - p1necone 7y ago
      I don't think this is true, Apple has definitely been raising prices significantly in the last few years even on the cheapest models. Unless you're counting still being able to buy a generation or two behind for cheaper as "current generation" Edit: this article has a nice chart https://www.gsmarena.com/price_history_of_apples_iphones-news-34040.php https://www.gsmarena.com/price_history_of_apples_iphones-new... There's a couple of blips with the 5c and the SE but for the most part even the "budget models" are more expensive than the flagships of old, and the flagships are significantly more expensive. I'm curious how long they can continue this and still sell phones. I wonder if prices being spread out along 24 month contracts with carriers is what's protecting their sales despite the price rises.
      - freehunter 7y ago
        I don’t know how you can say “I don’t think this is true”... it’s not an opinion it’s just actual fact. The iPhone 11 is $699 and the person found $650 to be acceptable. That’s roughly comparable prices. Again, just because Apple added a more expensive model doesn’t mean the iPhone 11 is any worse nor is it “budget” or “a generation or two behind”. It’s actually called iPhone 11 not iPhone 11c or iPhone 11SE or iPhone 11R, the iPhone 11 is the model Apple expects people to buy which is why it’s called iPhone 11 as a follow up to the iPhone XS which was a follow up to the iPhone X.
      - paulcole 7y ago
        The iPhone 11 at release was $699, $50 more than the person paid for the 6s 4 years ago. They got the model with 16gb and a 4.7” screen. The 11 starts at 64gb with a 6.1” screen. Is this raising prices significantly?
- asdff 7y ago
  The breaking point is already there now that companies like Apple have a leasing plan to obscure the total cost from consumers.
cletus 7y ago
The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger. Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that. You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) and who is going to keep making them? I really wish there were standards for lithium batteries like we have for AA and AAA batteries. I'm not sure it's that simple though since there are bunch of parameters like peak power delivery, power storage and so son. But I'm no battery expert. Anyway, newness of the form factor is also an issue. Back in the 90s, PCs used to be similarly short-lived. Microsoft's whole business model was built around people re-buying Windows licenses even 2-4 years. I think this will improve as the market matures but we're still in the pioneering days in some ways.
- ISL 7y ago
  A tablet with a depleted battery and a USB power supply is still a viable computer/display. One of the devices that started this thread would be a tablet Trello-board/calendar on our refrigerator if not for the fact that the device hasn't had a security update in many years.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) This is one of those things which is technically true but practically a red herring. The amount of weight it adds is on the order of grams and the cost is pennies. They stopped making replaceable batteries because they want you to throw away the device and buy a new one. > and who is going to keep making them? This is the least of the trouble if the model is at all popular, because the margins on custom batteries can be quite large (e.g. charge $15 for a battery with a $3 manufacturing cost), so as long as the specifications are documented you can expect somebody to be willing to make a buck. But what would really help is to standardize the batteries. The shape of phones hasn't really changed since the start of the iPhone era and there are only meaningfully a half dozen different sizes.
uponcoffee 7y ago
Tight coupling to binary blobs and proprietary HALs + vendor specific OS changes etc make maintenance a chore - everyone in the chain has to be on board for it to happen. They are incentized not to, new phones means profit for carriers and new hardware means profit for chip makers. Maintaining old products costs money, not maintaining products saves money, planned obsolescence prints money

wishinghand 7y ago

The market will bear it. Especially in the age of subsidized phones people didn’t mind the cost as much. This may change with $1000+ flagship phones.

cletus 7y ago
This is the area where Apple now sucks, hard. Go back 5-10 years ago the the Macbook Air (not the original form ~2008 but the second one from 2010-2011) was an awesome piece of hardware. I mean it still had soldered RAM (I think?) and lacked upgradeability but it was cheap and good. Apple's current leadership didn't like this so we end up with useless features like the Touch Bar, which exist for one reason and one reason only: to drive up the ASP (average selling price) of Macbooks. The same thing has happened to iPhones. The last iPhone I bought was the 6S 4 years ago and I think it was $649? Expensive but not ridiculously so. Like paying that every 3 years wasn't terrible. But now? The 11 Pro is >$1000. WTF? And these things keep getting worse as they add features no one wants or needs to drive up the ASP (eg Force Touch). Oh and current iPhones use FaceID which is terrible. The false negative rate is really high and having no home button actually sucks. For example, you used to get to the home screen by pressing it. Now you need to swipe up. But which direction you have to swipe up from depends on the orientation of the app you're using. That may not be obvious. It sucks. But I don't want to pay $1000+ for a phone with a battery that noticeably degrades in 2-3 years. To hell with that. I'd be tempted to buy the iPhone 8 (the last one with Touch ID) but for a now 2 year old model the price is unjustifiably high as they want to drive you to buy the 11 or at least the XR.
- freehunter 7y ago
  > The last iPhone I bought was the 6S 4 years ago and I think it was $649 But now? The 11 Pro is $1000. WTF? Ridiculous argument. Apple still makes a current-generation phone roughly on par with the price that you found acceptable. Just because they also added a more expensive mode does not in any way discount that fact.
  - p1necone 7y ago
    I don't think this is true, Apple has definitely been raising prices significantly in the last few years even on the cheapest models. Unless you're counting still being able to buy a generation or two behind for cheaper as "current generation" Edit: this article has a nice chart https://www.gsmarena.com/price_history_of_apples_iphones-news-34040.php https://www.gsmarena.com/price_history_of_apples_iphones-new... There's a couple of blips with the 5c and the SE but for the most part even the "budget models" are more expensive than the flagships of old, and the flagships are significantly more expensive. I'm curious how long they can continue this and still sell phones. I wonder if prices being spread out along 24 month contracts with carriers is what's protecting their sales despite the price rises.
    - freehunter 7y ago
      I don’t know how you can say “I don’t think this is true”... it’s not an opinion it’s just actual fact. The iPhone 11 is $699 and the person found $650 to be acceptable. That’s roughly comparable prices. Again, just because Apple added a more expensive model doesn’t mean the iPhone 11 is any worse nor is it “budget” or “a generation or two behind”. It’s actually called iPhone 11 not iPhone 11c or iPhone 11SE or iPhone 11R, the iPhone 11 is the model Apple expects people to buy which is why it’s called iPhone 11 as a follow up to the iPhone XS which was a follow up to the iPhone X.
    - paulcole 7y ago
      The iPhone 11 at release was $699, $50 more than the person paid for the 6s 4 years ago. They got the model with 16gb and a 4.7” screen. The 11 starts at 64gb with a 6.1” screen. Is this raising prices significantly?
asdff 7y ago
The breaking point is already there now that companies like Apple have a leasing plan to obscure the total cost from consumers.

cletus 7y ago

The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger. Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that. You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) and who is going to keep making them? I really wish there were standards for lithium batteries like we have for AA and AAA batteries. I'm not sure it's that simple though since there are bunch of parameters like peak power delivery, power storage and so son. But I'm no battery expert. Anyway, newness of the form factor is also an issue. Back in the 90s, PCs used to be similarly short-lived. Microsoft's whole business model was built around people re-buying Windows licenses even 2-4 years. I think this will improve as the market matures but we're still in the pioneering days in some ways.

ISL 7y ago
A tablet with a depleted battery and a USB power supply is still a viable computer/display. One of the devices that started this thread would be a tablet Trello-board/calendar on our refrigerator if not for the fact that the device hasn't had a security update in many years.
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) This is one of those things which is technically true but practically a red herring. The amount of weight it adds is on the order of grams and the cost is pennies. They stopped making replaceable batteries because they want you to throw away the device and buy a new one. > and who is going to keep making them? This is the least of the trouble if the model is at all popular, because the margins on custom batteries can be quite large (e.g. charge $15 for a battery with a $3 manufacturing cost), so as long as the specifications are documented you can expect somebody to be willing to make a buck. But what would really help is to standardize the batteries. The shape of phones hasn't really changed since the start of the iPhone era and there are only meaningfully a half dozen different sizes.

uponcoffee 7y ago

Tight coupling to binary blobs and proprietary HALs + vendor specific OS changes etc make maintenance a chore - everyone in the chain has to be on board for it to happen. They are incentized not to, new phones means profit for carriers and new hardware means profit for chip makers. Maintaining old products costs money, not maintaining products saves money, planned obsolescence prints money