6 ms·

> it is a complete no brainer to invest in optimising the IO channel between your brain and the machine Why? You'll never even double the "throughput" of that

> it is a complete no brainer to invest in optimising the IO channel between your brain and the machine Why? You'll never even double the "throughput" of that "channel", let alone improve it by an order of magnitude. And I say this as someone who wasted lots of time and money attempting exactly that before I realized that typing is not what I spend most of my time doing while programming.

ganonm 7y ago
It's not just about improving the bandwidth (although that is nice), the one thing I wouldn't trade that the Ergodox gives me is a very low error rate in typing. This is hard to achieve with a traditional keyboard, especially when you starting throwing special characters into the mix that require two-handed contortions. I've heard the refrain "you don't spend most of your time typing when programming" so many times it's almost become a trope. I personally spend enough time typing during a typical day (working or otherwise) that I really appreciate the benefits of a highly optimised keyboard setup, although of course YMMV. I don't think the argument holds water.
- honkycat 7y ago
  Agreed. That statement is one of those catty oft repeated things we are supposed to take as gospel for some reason. Personally: I spend ALL DAY typing. Configurations, code, documentation, tutorials, arguments for doing things one way or another, user stories for work, chatting with my coworkers, running cli commands. I see a huge difference in my productivity between myself and my peers partly due to my faster text input and editing skills.
- terranoct 7y ago
  It's not the bandwidth per se, so much it's the continuous attention cost spent on keeping that bandwidth going. Better tactile feedback and more reliable input means I don't have to constantly multitask half a task worth of attention onto making sure the input I think I'm doing went off as intended, which makes it easier to concentrate on the main task, which reduces the build up of fatigue, which reduces the rate at which the cost of mental effort increases throughout the day. Which is not to mention things like the chance of getting hand cramps from the additional tension there caused by interacting with a less reliable keyboard, and by the tendency to use excess input force in attempt to get strokes through more consistently.
  - tomc1985 7y ago
    By my read y'all need more practice typing, not a fancy expensive ergo keyboard. Other than the occasional hand cramps this lifelong nerd doesn't have any of those problems on this old, mushy MS natural.
    - Baeocystin 7y ago
      Fully agreed. I am very thankful that I took typewriting classes when I was younger. I do not think it is a coincidence that I also do not have trouble with keyboards being difficult to type on, unlike 90%+ of the folks I work with. Just plain putting in the hours of practice on proper form may not be a very exciting answer, but I can't think of a more effective one.
      - UI_at_80x24 7y ago
        I agree 100% with you on this. My first year of high-school we had a typing class on an IBM Selectric keyboard. Our teacher was a wizened old secretary that for a considerable portion of her career used a non-electric typewriter. What has always stayed with me was her guidance on posture and form. The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings, and yet I can say almost 40-years later; still works and is effective. I readily admit that I'm probably lucky too in that I don't follow that guidance to the T, I do however follow the basic form of it. This anecdote simply agrees with your statement. *: 'piano style' wrists higher then knuckles, finger-tips hovering/barely touching home-row, back straight
        Symbiote 7y ago
        > The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings What? That seems to be exactly the current advice. http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-at-computer/ http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-a... http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html (First two hits from a Google search.)
- clarry 7y ago
  > I've heard the refrain "you don't spend most of your time typing when programming" so many times it's almost become a trope. Yeah. Yet, when you switch to a completely different (and maybe not very comfortable) keyboard layout and get slowed down to 50% of your usual speed and make a lot more typos, it just immediately shows how incredibly frustrating coding can get even if typing isn't the primary challenge in it. Input should flow effortlessly and comfortably. That just makes it easier to focus on the more important stuff.
big_chungus 7y ago
This differs from one man to the next, as well as by specialty. Some people work better by typing out code quickly, permuting it several different ways, and coming up with a final revision. On the other hand, I sometimes spend ten minutes staring at my screen, then bang out ten lines of code that get something _just right_. However, someone who's more devops/sysadmin focused might type more, as he's piping lots of tools together to filter the output of something, at least from my experience.
ken 7y ago
One, it is a bottleneck. I don’t need to double it to see overall improvements. Two, it’s not just about speed. Some small changes here led to much less physical pain.
ardy42 7y ago
> Why? You'll never even double the "throughput" of that "channel", let alone improve it by an order of magnitude. Maybe it's not about throughput so much as eliminating unnecessary mental workload and friction.
- the_gipsy 7y ago
  It eliminates frustration. I hate having to look away from the screen, and with a regular keyboard I always have to look down too often, unless I'm writing just prose.
samatman 7y ago
What an Ergodox lets me do is this: while standing, with good posture, I extend my arms, level with the ground, to where they comfortably and naturally want to be. Then, I put the keyboards there, adjust the desk up to that height, and put books under the monitor until the center is exactly level with my eyes. Trackball to the right. This is dramatically more comfortable than anything else I could be doing. It's hard to convey how uncomfortable a straight keyboard is to someone who hasn't tried the alternative.
- ganonm 7y ago
  Yep totally agree, in fact sometimes when people see it and ask me questions about it, I suggest they stand at my desk and lay their hands on the two islands. Even without typing a single character they almost invariably react extremely positively to the ergonomic pose.
  - markstos 7y ago
    Typing this on an Ergodox EZ as well. I defined custom layers so that I can toggle a layer on depending on whether I'm using the keyboard with Chrome OS or Ubuntu Linux. This allows me to use the same shortcuts between the two OSes, while they are otherwise not customizable on Chrome OS. Also, it allows me to use media keys for Chrome OS on a split/ergo keyboard. Plus as a Vim user, I'm able to use HJKL arrow keys in any app on either OS. My layout is here: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/3vzB7/GZN4A/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/3vzB7/GZ...
- Fellshard 7y ago
  For me, I notice the difference in my shoulders. They tuck in with a compact keyboard, and then my wrists bow inward. It ends in a slouch and increasing neck pain over time - even my personal laptop makes this noticeable after a short amount of time. Ergodox EZ may puzzle people with its layout, but the split island part alone has made computing comfortable for me, especially when combined with a sit/stand desk. There's a lot less physical strain to wrestle with, which a bigger difference as time goes on.
_pmf_ 7y ago
But L. Ron Hubbard ...
mgreenleaf 7y ago
I bought a Razer Blackwidow and it makes the experience of typing, whenever I type, a much more pleasant experience. The first time I used it, it almost felt like cutting through butter compared to any keyboard I'd used before. And it will last for tens of millions of keystrokes. I may not type much, but those times where I do, it is beautiful.
crispyambulance 7y ago
I think folks should not bother trying to justify their keyboard preferences. You're right that it usually makes little difference in terms of productivity. On the other hand it can be very rewarding to choose something relatively unique for one's keyboard, or even make their own. The keyboard is kind of "intimate". It makes sense to make it yours. Not everything has to be utilitarian.

ganonm 7y ago

It's not just about improving the bandwidth (although that is nice), the one thing I wouldn't trade that the Ergodox gives me is a very low error rate in typing. This is hard to achieve with a traditional keyboard, especially when you starting throwing special characters into the mix that require two-handed contortions. I've heard the refrain "you don't spend most of your time typing when programming" so many times it's almost become a trope. I personally spend enough time typing during a typical day (working or otherwise) that I really appreciate the benefits of a highly optimised keyboard setup, although of course YMMV. I don't think the argument holds water.

honkycat 7y ago
Agreed. That statement is one of those catty oft repeated things we are supposed to take as gospel for some reason. Personally: I spend ALL DAY typing. Configurations, code, documentation, tutorials, arguments for doing things one way or another, user stories for work, chatting with my coworkers, running cli commands. I see a huge difference in my productivity between myself and my peers partly due to my faster text input and editing skills.
terranoct 7y ago
It's not the bandwidth per se, so much it's the continuous attention cost spent on keeping that bandwidth going. Better tactile feedback and more reliable input means I don't have to constantly multitask half a task worth of attention onto making sure the input I think I'm doing went off as intended, which makes it easier to concentrate on the main task, which reduces the build up of fatigue, which reduces the rate at which the cost of mental effort increases throughout the day. Which is not to mention things like the chance of getting hand cramps from the additional tension there caused by interacting with a less reliable keyboard, and by the tendency to use excess input force in attempt to get strokes through more consistently.
- tomc1985 7y ago
  By my read y'all need more practice typing, not a fancy expensive ergo keyboard. Other than the occasional hand cramps this lifelong nerd doesn't have any of those problems on this old, mushy MS natural.
  - Baeocystin 7y ago
    Fully agreed. I am very thankful that I took typewriting classes when I was younger. I do not think it is a coincidence that I also do not have trouble with keyboards being difficult to type on, unlike 90%+ of the folks I work with. Just plain putting in the hours of practice on proper form may not be a very exciting answer, but I can't think of a more effective one.
    - UI_at_80x24 7y ago
      I agree 100% with you on this. My first year of high-school we had a typing class on an IBM Selectric keyboard. Our teacher was a wizened old secretary that for a considerable portion of her career used a non-electric typewriter. What has always stayed with me was her guidance on posture and form. The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings, and yet I can say almost 40-years later; still works and is effective. I readily admit that I'm probably lucky too in that I don't follow that guidance to the T, I do however follow the basic form of it. This anecdote simply agrees with your statement. *: 'piano style' wrists higher then knuckles, finger-tips hovering/barely touching home-row, back straight
      - Symbiote 7y ago
        > The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings What? That seems to be exactly the current advice. http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-at-computer/ http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-a... http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html (First two hits from a Google search.)
clarry 7y ago
> I've heard the refrain "you don't spend most of your time typing when programming" so many times it's almost become a trope. Yeah. Yet, when you switch to a completely different (and maybe not very comfortable) keyboard layout and get slowed down to 50% of your usual speed and make a lot more typos, it just immediately shows how incredibly frustrating coding can get even if typing isn't the primary challenge in it. Input should flow effortlessly and comfortably. That just makes it easier to focus on the more important stuff.

big_chungus 7y ago

This differs from one man to the next, as well as by specialty. Some people work better by typing out code quickly, permuting it several different ways, and coming up with a final revision. On the other hand, I sometimes spend ten minutes staring at my screen, then bang out ten lines of code that get something _just right_. However, someone who's more devops/sysadmin focused might type more, as he's piping lots of tools together to filter the output of something, at least from my experience.

ken 7y ago

One, it is a bottleneck. I don’t need to double it to see overall improvements. Two, it’s not just about speed. Some small changes here led to much less physical pain.

ardy42 7y ago

> Why? You'll never even double the "throughput" of that "channel", let alone improve it by an order of magnitude. Maybe it's not about throughput so much as eliminating unnecessary mental workload and friction.

the_gipsy 7y ago
It eliminates frustration. I hate having to look away from the screen, and with a regular keyboard I always have to look down too often, unless I'm writing just prose.

samatman 7y ago

What an Ergodox lets me do is this: while standing, with good posture, I extend my arms, level with the ground, to where they comfortably and naturally want to be. Then, I put the keyboards there, adjust the desk up to that height, and put books under the monitor until the center is exactly level with my eyes. Trackball to the right. This is dramatically more comfortable than anything else I could be doing. It's hard to convey how uncomfortable a straight keyboard is to someone who hasn't tried the alternative.

ganonm 7y ago
Yep totally agree, in fact sometimes when people see it and ask me questions about it, I suggest they stand at my desk and lay their hands on the two islands. Even without typing a single character they almost invariably react extremely positively to the ergonomic pose.
- markstos 7y ago
  Typing this on an Ergodox EZ as well. I defined custom layers so that I can toggle a layer on depending on whether I'm using the keyboard with Chrome OS or Ubuntu Linux. This allows me to use the same shortcuts between the two OSes, while they are otherwise not customizable on Chrome OS. Also, it allows me to use media keys for Chrome OS on a split/ergo keyboard. Plus as a Vim user, I'm able to use HJKL arrow keys in any app on either OS. My layout is here: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/3vzB7/GZN4A/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/3vzB7/GZ...
Fellshard 7y ago
For me, I notice the difference in my shoulders. They tuck in with a compact keyboard, and then my wrists bow inward. It ends in a slouch and increasing neck pain over time - even my personal laptop makes this noticeable after a short amount of time. Ergodox EZ may puzzle people with its layout, but the split island part alone has made computing comfortable for me, especially when combined with a sit/stand desk. There's a lot less physical strain to wrestle with, which a bigger difference as time goes on.

_pmf_ 7y ago

But L. Ron Hubbard ...

mgreenleaf 7y ago

I bought a Razer Blackwidow and it makes the experience of typing, whenever I type, a much more pleasant experience. The first time I used it, it almost felt like cutting through butter compared to any keyboard I'd used before. And it will last for tens of millions of keystrokes. I may not type much, but those times where I do, it is beautiful.

crispyambulance 7y ago

I think folks should not bother trying to justify their keyboard preferences. You're right that it usually makes little difference in terms of productivity. On the other hand it can be very rewarding to choose something relatively unique for one's keyboard, or even make their own. The keyboard is kind of "intimate". It makes sense to make it yours. Not everything has to be utilitarian.