6 ms·

I'll be honest, I bought an Ergodox EZ a year or so ago and have consistently struggled to get comfortable using it. I have set up quite a few useful macros for

by cyphar 7y ago

I'll be honest, I bought an Ergodox EZ a year or so ago and have consistently struggled to get comfortable using it. I have set up quite a few useful macros for programs I use daily like tmux as well as making it more vim-friendly (after many interations) and yet I still find it a serious chore to get past the fact that the keys feel un-naturally placed. Eventually I just give up and switch back to my laptop keyboard (I'm usually trying to write something and it feels like the keyboard is blocking my natural stream of typing) and so the cycle continues. I guess my question is -- did everyone else switching to the Ergodox EZ have this problem? And should I just push myself to suffer through it more? Or is it the case that I should revisit my layout (again) to figure out if there's a way to further optimise it so it feels less foreign? One of the really frustrating things is that there isn't a natural place to put fairly common programming key combinations such as "()", "{}", "=+", or "-_" -- does everyone else just use layer toggles for that? EDIT: Ah, I see your layout makes fairly significant use layer toggles. And you also had trouble with "on-boarding" for the first few weeks -- I guess I just need to force myself to use it then. I might take yours and modify it to add some of the tmux and i3 macros I have defined.

pottertheotter 7y ago
Wow, I had never heard of that keyboard. It looks like it would be an absolute nightmare to set up and learn to use.
- cyphar 7y ago
  To be fair, most ergonomic keyboards have strange layouts. Such is the price for avoiding RSI.
  - Moru 7y ago
    The microsoft natural 4000 keyboard is pretty standard except split in the middle. It's good enough for me, no need to relearn but much better to use. I still get wrist problems but it takes longer.
- samatman 7y ago
  Your mileage may vary! I found it easy and rewarding, other people find the ortholinear layout confusing and struggle to type on it, as some sibling comments show. The one hitch I hit early on, is that it turns out I type 'y' with the left finger on laptops, and on a stock ErgoDox, that involves hitting a layer button, which of course throws off one's rhythm. I had to turn that key into a dead key until I got used to typing y with my right finger (I still hit it with the left on a laptop).
  - rdrey 7y ago
    Hah, the key I struggled with the most was 'b'. My brain was convinced that was a right index-finger key the first couple of weeks using an Ergodox EZ.
ithkuil 7y ago
I also struggled with the otholinear layout and ended up switching to a http://www.mistelkeyboard.com/md650l-barocco/ http://www.mistelkeyboard.com/md650l-barocco/
- stevenicr 7y ago
  no pricing info, or anything else to suggest any way to get one of these from what I see. Maybe it's the English version that suffers in this way? They look cool. If they could make one with no need for wire between the two halves I'd dig deeper on how to get one I suppose.
  - ithkuil 7y ago
    I bought mine on (mass)drop
- souterrain 7y ago
  I was looking for something close to this design, particularly with low profile switches. Thanks.
  - souterrain 7y ago
    Alas, it is presently unobtainium. I guess I need to consider building my own split keyboard using Cherry ML switches.
    - sezna 7y ago
      This is similar and in stock, if you’re okay assembling it. They have great build documentation. https://keeb.io/collections/keyboard-pcbs/products/quefrency-60-65-split-staggered-keyboard?variant=16032980861022 https://keeb.io/collections/keyboard-pcbs/products/quefrency...
      - souterrain 7y ago
        The build looks reasonably straightforward. I suspect I wouldn't be able to use low-profile switches with this, but I'll fully admit I'm not well versed in keyboard assembly. Thanks for this. I'm getting closer to what I'm looking for.
ganonm 7y ago
Yeah I found it very painful at first (like learning Vim but perhaps 5x times worse). I highly recommend using typing.io to get used to it. Since the training examples are source code, it ensures you get exposed to special characters, which is crucial if you're using your ergodox for programming. As you can see from the table on my GitHub page, progress was slow and took several weeks to reach baseline levels. This was from maybe 45-60mins per day of dedicated practice. I see the time investment as having paid for itself tenfold already.
- clarry 7y ago
  Curious, which language did you measure typing speed in?
  - ganonm 7y ago
    Java and some Ruby just to make sure it wasn't over optimised for a single language.
- leghifla 7y ago
  I also switched to an Ergodox EZ (about 2 years ago), and the switch was very painful. At first, my speed was divided by 2. Using some typing practice, I managed to get to my usual speed on a normal keyboard and then thought: good, now I can definitely remove my old keyboard for good. My god this was wrong: When typing what I saw before me, my brain could dedicate 100% to typing, and this was fine. But when programming, or even writing an email, part of my brain must concentrate on the content, and my typing what very laborious, maybe half of the normal speed, with many errors. This was taxing much of my mental energy. I kept on for a at least one month of typing practice before really making a permanent switch. It was hard, but I do not regret it at all. Worth noting: I thinkered with the layout quite a bit. Even moving one special character somewhere else could take me a full day to adjust, and it was painful. So I finally settled on a good, but probably not optimal layout. As some other comment above, I do not use common keys as layer keys (something I really wanted to use) because of delays. It is not much, but I experienced much more typing errors with this.
hchasestevens 7y ago
I had a difficult time initially adjusting to my ergodox, a few years back. For the first month or so it felt like I had had a stroke. What worked for me was: 1. Only switching to layers when pressing and holding keys, not having them permanently toggle - otherwise, I find it's very easy to get disoriented and mistake what layer you're on. 2. Not using any common keys as toggles, since the sight delay was driving me insane 3. Probably the biggest one - instead of trying to learn/adjust to the layout you have (especially the default, which I found to have a lot of questionable key placements), whenever you press a key and something other that what you expected to happen happens, adjust your layout to make your original intuition work. This involved a lot of frequent small layout changes initially but I think led to a much less intense learning curve. Anyway, best of luck - here's the layout I use now, if you're interested: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/layouts/Jrnz/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/layouts/Jrnz/latest/0
iamsomewalrus 7y ago
I wrapped my head around the ergodox by realizing that you have to use layers. It's not supposed to map 1:1 with a regular keyboard. I use a modified version of the default symbol layer that's more programmer friendly (I think) and I put the toggle for this layer under my right index finger. I feel like I'm more accurate now because it's not just my right pinky doing all the symbol work. https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/aN90b/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/aN90b/la...
eyeball 7y ago
Thumb keys are too akward to reach for my hand size. I like the ultimate hacking keyboard better.
- eugen_a 7y ago
  Haven't tried the Ergodox, but had bad experiences with thumb keys on both a Kinesis Advantage and a Keyboardio. Then I tried the ultimate hacking keyboard and I absolutely love it, especially the mouse emulation layer. And it took me way less to get used to it compared to the above two. I can't recommend it enough!
Wiles_7 7y ago
I bought an Ergodox many years ago and used it daily for ~18 months. I never got used to it and it has been gathering dust they since.
johnlinvc 7y ago
I don't use toggles for these common symbols like /\'[-+] . The trick is that you make the top row as same as a normal keyboard, move ]\ from second row to the bottom row as they seldom get typed (] got auto completion most of the time). Following is my mapping. https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/zLQW4/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/zLQW4/la...

by cyphar 7y ago

pottertheotter 7y ago

Wow, I had never heard of that keyboard. It looks like it would be an absolute nightmare to set up and learn to use.

cyphar 7y ago
To be fair, most ergonomic keyboards have strange layouts. Such is the price for avoiding RSI.
- Moru 7y ago
  The microsoft natural 4000 keyboard is pretty standard except split in the middle. It's good enough for me, no need to relearn but much better to use. I still get wrist problems but it takes longer.
samatman 7y ago
Your mileage may vary! I found it easy and rewarding, other people find the ortholinear layout confusing and struggle to type on it, as some sibling comments show. The one hitch I hit early on, is that it turns out I type 'y' with the left finger on laptops, and on a stock ErgoDox, that involves hitting a layer button, which of course throws off one's rhythm. I had to turn that key into a dead key until I got used to typing y with my right finger (I still hit it with the left on a laptop).
- rdrey 7y ago
  Hah, the key I struggled with the most was 'b'. My brain was convinced that was a right index-finger key the first couple of weeks using an Ergodox EZ.

ithkuil 7y ago

I also struggled with the otholinear layout and ended up switching to a http://www.mistelkeyboard.com/md650l-barocco/ http://www.mistelkeyboard.com/md650l-barocco/

stevenicr 7y ago
no pricing info, or anything else to suggest any way to get one of these from what I see. Maybe it's the English version that suffers in this way? They look cool. If they could make one with no need for wire between the two halves I'd dig deeper on how to get one I suppose.
- ithkuil 7y ago
  I bought mine on (mass)drop
souterrain 7y ago
I was looking for something close to this design, particularly with low profile switches. Thanks.
- souterrain 7y ago
  Alas, it is presently unobtainium. I guess I need to consider building my own split keyboard using Cherry ML switches.
  - sezna 7y ago
    This is similar and in stock, if you’re okay assembling it. They have great build documentation. https://keeb.io/collections/keyboard-pcbs/products/quefrency-60-65-split-staggered-keyboard?variant=16032980861022 https://keeb.io/collections/keyboard-pcbs/products/quefrency...
    - souterrain 7y ago
      The build looks reasonably straightforward. I suspect I wouldn't be able to use low-profile switches with this, but I'll fully admit I'm not well versed in keyboard assembly. Thanks for this. I'm getting closer to what I'm looking for.

ganonm 7y ago

Yeah I found it very painful at first (like learning Vim but perhaps 5x times worse). I highly recommend using typing.io to get used to it. Since the training examples are source code, it ensures you get exposed to special characters, which is crucial if you're using your ergodox for programming. As you can see from the table on my GitHub page, progress was slow and took several weeks to reach baseline levels. This was from maybe 45-60mins per day of dedicated practice. I see the time investment as having paid for itself tenfold already.

clarry 7y ago
Curious, which language did you measure typing speed in?
- ganonm 7y ago
  Java and some Ruby just to make sure it wasn't over optimised for a single language.
leghifla 7y ago
I also switched to an Ergodox EZ (about 2 years ago), and the switch was very painful. At first, my speed was divided by 2. Using some typing practice, I managed to get to my usual speed on a normal keyboard and then thought: good, now I can definitely remove my old keyboard for good. My god this was wrong: When typing what I saw before me, my brain could dedicate 100% to typing, and this was fine. But when programming, or even writing an email, part of my brain must concentrate on the content, and my typing what very laborious, maybe half of the normal speed, with many errors. This was taxing much of my mental energy. I kept on for a at least one month of typing practice before really making a permanent switch. It was hard, but I do not regret it at all. Worth noting: I thinkered with the layout quite a bit. Even moving one special character somewhere else could take me a full day to adjust, and it was painful. So I finally settled on a good, but probably not optimal layout. As some other comment above, I do not use common keys as layer keys (something I really wanted to use) because of delays. It is not much, but I experienced much more typing errors with this.

hchasestevens 7y ago

I had a difficult time initially adjusting to my ergodox, a few years back. For the first month or so it felt like I had had a stroke. What worked for me was: 1. Only switching to layers when pressing and holding keys, not having them permanently toggle - otherwise, I find it's very easy to get disoriented and mistake what layer you're on. 2. Not using any common keys as toggles, since the sight delay was driving me insane 3. Probably the biggest one - instead of trying to learn/adjust to the layout you have (especially the default, which I found to have a lot of questionable key placements), whenever you press a key and something other that what you expected to happen happens, adjust your layout to make your original intuition work. This involved a lot of frequent small layout changes initially but I think led to a much less intense learning curve. Anyway, best of luck - here's the layout I use now, if you're interested: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/layouts/Jrnz/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/layouts/Jrnz/latest/0

iamsomewalrus 7y ago

I wrapped my head around the ergodox by realizing that you have to use layers. It's not supposed to map 1:1 with a regular keyboard. I use a modified version of the default symbol layer that's more programmer friendly (I think) and I put the toggle for this layer under my right index finger. I feel like I'm more accurate now because it's not just my right pinky doing all the symbol work. https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/aN90b/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/aN90b/la...

eyeball 7y ago

Thumb keys are too akward to reach for my hand size. I like the ultimate hacking keyboard better.

eugen_a 7y ago
Haven't tried the Ergodox, but had bad experiences with thumb keys on both a Kinesis Advantage and a Keyboardio. Then I tried the ultimate hacking keyboard and I absolutely love it, especially the mouse emulation layer. And it took me way less to get used to it compared to the above two. I can't recommend it enough!

Wiles_7 7y ago

I bought an Ergodox many years ago and used it daily for ~18 months. I never got used to it and it has been gathering dust they since.

johnlinvc 7y ago

I don't use toggles for these common symbols like /\'[-+] . The trick is that you make the top row as same as a normal keyboard, move ]\ from second row to the bottom row as they seldom get typed (] got auto completion most of the time). Following is my mapping. https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/zLQW4/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/zLQW4/la...