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>> It makes no sense. I think it makes a lot of sense. Of course there are differences between men and women. This has been used to deny women entrance to univ

>> It makes no sense. I think it makes a lot of sense. Of course there are differences between men and women. This has been used to deny women entrance to universities, to take out loans, to own property, vote, participate in politics, make laws, start companies, become scientists and doctors, run marathons, and make many substantial decisions about their lives. If these differences weren't historically used as justification to deny people the ability to have control over their lives, then yes it would be easier to talk about them. Given the reality of how "focusing on differences" turns out for certain groups, it makes sense why people push for a more complete conversation than just Male != Female. I have never spoken to a single person who flat out denies that biological differences and preferences exist between men and women. I think it is largely an uncharitable summary of the view that "Men and women aren't as different as society imposes through socialization." I don't think that most feminists claim that men and women have no differences. I also don't think it is politically incorrect to acknowledge that men and women are different and may have different preferences, as long as it is not used in the context to dismiss valid concerns about how women and men are treated socially, politically, and economically.

wirrbel 7y ago
Yes, and our societies when talking about sex differences in the brain usually assume male brains to be normal, and female brains to be different or in some way deficient.
- username90 7y ago
  Most articles I read talks about how to socialize boys to be more like girls. Like, how do we make boys sit still in classroom? How do we make men less violent? How do we make men communicate nicer like women? How do we make men clean their homes instead of being fine with living in a mess? How do we make men want to settle down instead of sleeping around? How do we make men cry more like women? How do we make men talk more about feelings and less about things? The only things I see they normalize in boys is love for technical subjects. And ever there we don't say that we need to change girls so they love technical subjects, instead we say we need to change boys so that girls can start to love technical subjects. So I very much think that we normalize girls, girls shouldn't have to change anything at all about who they are, instead all social change must happen by changing boys as much as possible into girls.
username90 7y ago
> I also don't think it is politically incorrect to acknowledge that men and women are different and may have different preferences, as long as it is not used in the context to dismiss valid concerns about how women and men are treated socially, politically, and economically. Damore argued exactly for this but it still led to a shitstorm which ultimately got him fired. This proves that these things are still extremely politically incorrect.
- andybak 7y ago
  > Damore argued exactly for this but it still led to a shitstorm which ultimately got him fired. This proves that these things are still extremely politically incorrect. Whether what happened to him was right or wrong, your statement is an oversimplification of that case. But as a mod said further up, let's not go there as this discussion will spiral off into typically unproductive territory.
- ScottBurson 7y ago
  Ah, but I think Damore did dismiss those valid concerns. Not explicitly, as far as I recall, but implicitly, in choosing to feel victimized as a man by Google's personnel practices. Someone who had made a sincere effort to understand how women are treated in tech (and indeed, in business generally) would, I daresay, not have written as he did.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Damore didn't feel victimized by Google's personnel practices until after those "practices" involved him being fired from Google. He argued that policies that were purportedly intended to increase "fairness" in hiring were in fact markedly unfair, ineffective at their presumed goal and reflective of a growing political polarization within Google itself that was worrisome on its own. It's quite common to express concerns about fairness and related issues without feeling victimized personally.
  - jbjohns 7y ago
    When it comes to Damore I think it's important to understand that he thought he was writing to an internal group and could easily have been a bit looser with his language expecting to "bounce off ideas". The real problem here was releasing his memo to the internet without letting him prepare it for that medium first. If I were Google, I would have fired him too because business but I would have fired the leaker as well (or everyone who could have leaked it if I couldn't find out who it was).
mpweiher 7y ago
> these differences weren't historically used as justification to deny people the ability to have control over their lives Isn't the problem here the "deny" part, and not the justification given? That is, had the prevailing attitude been that men and women are exactly the same and therefore they must do exactly the same (backbreaking) work, wouldn't that have been just as bad? Or even worse? So how about we get rid of the "deny" part and just let people do what they individually want? Then we don't have to suppress scientific truths. And letting individuals do whatever they want is what western societies have been getting better and better at, partly because of economic prosperity, partly through political, cultural and social liberalisation. And as Western societies have gotten better at letting people do what they want, men and women have diverged. > people push for a more complete conversation than just Male != Female That's not what's happening, because nobody keeps it at "just Male ≠ Female". In fact, the opposite is happening, "more complete" conversations are verboten. The current narrative is that any differences that manifest themselves must be due to oppression, and if you try to have a "more complete" conversation about this topic (yes, like James Damore did), then you are a misogynistic troglodyte and must be removed. > "Men and women aren't as different as society imposes through socialization." Interestingly, it is that view (the "society imposes differences" one) that is contradicted by the evidence. That is: socialisation appears to make men and women more similar, not more different. Society imposes convergence, not divergence.
- dumbw4tch 7y ago
  Man Francisco is awesome, so is Man José
  - dumbw4tch 7y ago
    Ah and I almost forget, get kids because that is the only way to justify your stupidity.
- camgunz 7y ago
  > Isn't the problem here the "deny" part, and not the justification given? Well, the problem is the deny part. That's why in the context of race we say being race blind isn't helpful. You have to be race conscious, and the same goes for religion, orientation, gender, and sex. Generally, the core problem is we deny people things and remove their agency based on this stuff. It's fine to acknowledge and even celebrate differences. But when it starts to cause serious problems like the incarceration crisis or the equal pay crisis, then we need to look at systemic biases (because we should've been on the lookout for them the entire time).
matheusmoreira 7y ago
> Given the reality of how "focusing on differences" turns out for certain groups, it makes sense why people push for a more complete conversation than just Male != Female. They didn't push for a more complete conversation. Allowing a thorough examination of the question means giving the sexists a chance to prove themselves correct and that would do nothing but reinforce the sexism. Better to impose a "truth" and persecute those who dare to question it. Paul Graham wrote about this in 2004: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html > In every period of history, there seem to have been labels that got applied to statements to shoot them down before anyone had a chance to ask if they were true or not. > "Blasphemy", "sacrilege", and "heresy" were such labels for a good part of western history, as in more recent times "indecent", "improper", and "unamerican" have been. > Take a label—"sexist", for example—and try to think of some ideas that would be called that. Then for each ask, might this be true? Feminism has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with politics and power. They are making purposeful moves that advance the interests of women. The pursuit of truth in these matters is secondary at best. It is most likely a hindrance. What happens if they are right? > I have never spoken to a single person who flat out denies that biological differences and preferences exist between men and women. I haven't either. I have read their words and seen what they do to those who disagree.
- MyHypatia 7y ago
  >> They didn't push for a more complete conversation. >> Feminism has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with politics and power. >> I have read their words and seen what they do to those who disagree. Focusing on the most radical voices and generalizing broadly about feminism doesn't make you a "defender of the truth". In any movement you can find people with extreme opinions and then use that to discredit an entire group. There are many examples where feminism has made a positive impact without "denying the truth". One area where feminism has pushed for a more complete conversation is in sports. Women like to participate in sports. Until laws were passed that insisted women have an equal right to participate in sports, the argument was, "why fund women's sports when they're not interested?" Women are interested. It took time to get funding, organize teams, get access to facilities, develop the training schedules that are different for women's bodies. It has taken many years. On average, 45.7 percent of American marathon participants are now women. In the 1970's they were banned from even participating. So it's taken about 50 years to get from 0% to nearing parity. This was made possible without denying that men and women have different physical abilities. In fact, in some sports like boxing where physical mass matters a lot there are even categories within men's boxing: flyweight, featherweight, heavyweight. Manny Pacquiao is arguably one of the most famous boxers today. He primarily competes in the lower weight classes. He is a national hero. Nobody mocks his sport, denies him the ability to participate, or says that he is a poor athlete because he doesn't compete in the heavyweight category. Women athletes want the respect and opportunity to compete within their category, make money, develop a fan base, be broadcast on TV, have watch parties, etc. Manny Pacquiao is not a "truth denier" for not competing in heavyweight boxing where he would lose. The feminists who want female athletes to be respected for their talents are also not "truth deniers". In the intellectual realm, for a large part of history women have not had the same access to education as men. Now that women do have access, over half of the students at universities are women. It's true that men and women cluster in different majors. Major preferences for both men and women have changed a lot over time with different economic opportunities, hiring trends, what people's friends or parents did, what people see on TV, and what career counselors recommend. How many archaeologists were inspired by Indiana Jones? Is there some biological component to these choices? Maybe? I don't know. There are a lot of factors that go into people's life choices. The problem isn't studying whether this is true or not, but in using this information to dismiss concerns about unequal opportunity to prove oneself and deny opportunities to groups of people because of their biology when it is one of many factors that drive people's choices.
underpand 7y ago
> This has been used to deny women entrance to universities, to take out loans, to own property, vote, participate in politics, make laws, start companies, become scientists and doctors, run marathons, and make many substantial decisions about their lives. If these differences weren't historically used as justification to deny people the ability to have control over their lives, then yes it would be easier to talk about them. Correct me if I'm wrong but a majority of men throughout history did not have many rights either. 'Rights' were enjoyed by a few male aristocrats. History is written and perpetuated by the aristocrats. Note that rights were not that important for life quality for commoners in the past when people were struggling through wars, famine and lack of basic technology. Men also have had massive disadvantages because of the differences. Compared to female 'disadvantages', male disadvantages had higher impact on life quality and were less likely to have an intersection with commoners of the other gender. The male disadvantages being: dangerous physical labor jobs, participating in wars, less likely to start a family, forced to be the breadwinner and work at remote places away from family.

wirrbel 7y ago

Yes, and our societies when talking about sex differences in the brain usually assume male brains to be normal, and female brains to be different or in some way deficient.

username90 7y ago
Most articles I read talks about how to socialize boys to be more like girls. Like, how do we make boys sit still in classroom? How do we make men less violent? How do we make men communicate nicer like women? How do we make men clean their homes instead of being fine with living in a mess? How do we make men want to settle down instead of sleeping around? How do we make men cry more like women? How do we make men talk more about feelings and less about things? The only things I see they normalize in boys is love for technical subjects. And ever there we don't say that we need to change girls so they love technical subjects, instead we say we need to change boys so that girls can start to love technical subjects. So I very much think that we normalize girls, girls shouldn't have to change anything at all about who they are, instead all social change must happen by changing boys as much as possible into girls.

username90 7y ago

> I also don't think it is politically incorrect to acknowledge that men and women are different and may have different preferences, as long as it is not used in the context to dismiss valid concerns about how women and men are treated socially, politically, and economically. Damore argued exactly for this but it still led to a shitstorm which ultimately got him fired. This proves that these things are still extremely politically incorrect.

andybak 7y ago
> Damore argued exactly for this but it still led to a shitstorm which ultimately got him fired. This proves that these things are still extremely politically incorrect. Whether what happened to him was right or wrong, your statement is an oversimplification of that case. But as a mod said further up, let's not go there as this discussion will spiral off into typically unproductive territory.
ScottBurson 7y ago
Ah, but I think Damore did dismiss those valid concerns. Not explicitly, as far as I recall, but implicitly, in choosing to feel victimized as a man by Google's personnel practices. Someone who had made a sincere effort to understand how women are treated in tech (and indeed, in business generally) would, I daresay, not have written as he did.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Damore didn't feel victimized by Google's personnel practices until after those "practices" involved him being fired from Google. He argued that policies that were purportedly intended to increase "fairness" in hiring were in fact markedly unfair, ineffective at their presumed goal and reflective of a growing political polarization within Google itself that was worrisome on its own. It's quite common to express concerns about fairness and related issues without feeling victimized personally.
- jbjohns 7y ago
  When it comes to Damore I think it's important to understand that he thought he was writing to an internal group and could easily have been a bit looser with his language expecting to "bounce off ideas". The real problem here was releasing his memo to the internet without letting him prepare it for that medium first. If I were Google, I would have fired him too because business but I would have fired the leaker as well (or everyone who could have leaked it if I couldn't find out who it was).

mpweiher 7y ago

> these differences weren't historically used as justification to deny people the ability to have control over their lives Isn't the problem here the "deny" part, and not the justification given? That is, had the prevailing attitude been that men and women are exactly the same and therefore they must do exactly the same (backbreaking) work, wouldn't that have been just as bad? Or even worse? So how about we get rid of the "deny" part and just let people do what they individually want? Then we don't have to suppress scientific truths. And letting individuals do whatever they want is what western societies have been getting better and better at, partly because of economic prosperity, partly through political, cultural and social liberalisation. And as Western societies have gotten better at letting people do what they want, men and women have diverged. > people push for a more complete conversation than just Male != Female That's not what's happening, because nobody keeps it at "just Male ≠ Female". In fact, the opposite is happening, "more complete" conversations are verboten. The current narrative is that any differences that manifest themselves must be due to oppression, and if you try to have a "more complete" conversation about this topic (yes, like James Damore did), then you are a misogynistic troglodyte and must be removed. > "Men and women aren't as different as society imposes through socialization." Interestingly, it is that view (the "society imposes differences" one) that is contradicted by the evidence. That is: socialisation appears to make men and women more similar, not more different. Society imposes convergence, not divergence.

dumbw4tch 7y ago
Man Francisco is awesome, so is Man José
- dumbw4tch 7y ago
  Ah and I almost forget, get kids because that is the only way to justify your stupidity.
camgunz 7y ago
> Isn't the problem here the "deny" part, and not the justification given? Well, the problem is the deny part. That's why in the context of race we say being race blind isn't helpful. You have to be race conscious, and the same goes for religion, orientation, gender, and sex. Generally, the core problem is we deny people things and remove their agency based on this stuff. It's fine to acknowledge and even celebrate differences. But when it starts to cause serious problems like the incarceration crisis or the equal pay crisis, then we need to look at systemic biases (because we should've been on the lookout for them the entire time).

matheusmoreira 7y ago

> Given the reality of how "focusing on differences" turns out for certain groups, it makes sense why people push for a more complete conversation than just Male != Female. They didn't push for a more complete conversation. Allowing a thorough examination of the question means giving the sexists a chance to prove themselves correct and that would do nothing but reinforce the sexism. Better to impose a "truth" and persecute those who dare to question it. Paul Graham wrote about this in 2004: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html > In every period of history, there seem to have been labels that got applied to statements to shoot them down before anyone had a chance to ask if they were true or not. > "Blasphemy", "sacrilege", and "heresy" were such labels for a good part of western history, as in more recent times "indecent", "improper", and "unamerican" have been. > Take a label—"sexist", for example—and try to think of some ideas that would be called that. Then for each ask, might this be true? Feminism has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with politics and power. They are making purposeful moves that advance the interests of women. The pursuit of truth in these matters is secondary at best. It is most likely a hindrance. What happens if they are right? > I have never spoken to a single person who flat out denies that biological differences and preferences exist between men and women. I haven't either. I have read their words and seen what they do to those who disagree.

MyHypatia 7y ago
>> They didn't push for a more complete conversation. >> Feminism has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with politics and power. >> I have read their words and seen what they do to those who disagree. Focusing on the most radical voices and generalizing broadly about feminism doesn't make you a "defender of the truth". In any movement you can find people with extreme opinions and then use that to discredit an entire group. There are many examples where feminism has made a positive impact without "denying the truth". One area where feminism has pushed for a more complete conversation is in sports. Women like to participate in sports. Until laws were passed that insisted women have an equal right to participate in sports, the argument was, "why fund women's sports when they're not interested?" Women are interested. It took time to get funding, organize teams, get access to facilities, develop the training schedules that are different for women's bodies. It has taken many years. On average, 45.7 percent of American marathon participants are now women. In the 1970's they were banned from even participating. So it's taken about 50 years to get from 0% to nearing parity. This was made possible without denying that men and women have different physical abilities. In fact, in some sports like boxing where physical mass matters a lot there are even categories within men's boxing: flyweight, featherweight, heavyweight. Manny Pacquiao is arguably one of the most famous boxers today. He primarily competes in the lower weight classes. He is a national hero. Nobody mocks his sport, denies him the ability to participate, or says that he is a poor athlete because he doesn't compete in the heavyweight category. Women athletes want the respect and opportunity to compete within their category, make money, develop a fan base, be broadcast on TV, have watch parties, etc. Manny Pacquiao is not a "truth denier" for not competing in heavyweight boxing where he would lose. The feminists who want female athletes to be respected for their talents are also not "truth deniers". In the intellectual realm, for a large part of history women have not had the same access to education as men. Now that women do have access, over half of the students at universities are women. It's true that men and women cluster in different majors. Major preferences for both men and women have changed a lot over time with different economic opportunities, hiring trends, what people's friends or parents did, what people see on TV, and what career counselors recommend. How many archaeologists were inspired by Indiana Jones? Is there some biological component to these choices? Maybe? I don't know. There are a lot of factors that go into people's life choices. The problem isn't studying whether this is true or not, but in using this information to dismiss concerns about unequal opportunity to prove oneself and deny opportunities to groups of people because of their biology when it is one of many factors that drive people's choices.

underpand 7y ago

> This has been used to deny women entrance to universities, to take out loans, to own property, vote, participate in politics, make laws, start companies, become scientists and doctors, run marathons, and make many substantial decisions about their lives. If these differences weren't historically used as justification to deny people the ability to have control over their lives, then yes it would be easier to talk about them. Correct me if I'm wrong but a majority of men throughout history did not have many rights either. 'Rights' were enjoyed by a few male aristocrats. History is written and perpetuated by the aristocrats. Note that rights were not that important for life quality for commoners in the past when people were struggling through wars, famine and lack of basic technology. Men also have had massive disadvantages because of the differences. Compared to female 'disadvantages', male disadvantages had higher impact on life quality and were less likely to have an intersection with commoners of the other gender. The male disadvantages being: dangerous physical labor jobs, participating in wars, less likely to start a family, forced to be the breadwinner and work at remote places away from family.