5 ms·

Counter-point: if a programmer is successful in delivering business value, the programmer might have an inflated view of their programming abilities. I know I

Counter-point: if a programmer is successful in delivering business value, the programmer might have an inflated view of their programming abilities. I know I certainly have been affected by this. Being able to get things done does not necessarily make a person a great and talented programmer, but it may make them accomplished. My projects have grossed a lot of revenue, but several of these projects would be challenging for me and push my the limits of my skills. What I am saying is that there is room for more nuanced language to describe all these matters in a way that is detached and clinical.

busterarm 7y ago
Counter-counter-point: Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill than raw programming ability. Moreover, learning how to deliver value builds empathy for non-programmers who also deliver value and also the realization that programming ability is not where a company lives and dies. These are the number one and number two things most often lacking in programmers. I have to fight with "seasoned pros" on the regular to get them to stop doing things like sending passwords in email or worse, put them in text files in git. Because A) what the hell are you thinking and B) holy shit, we're a public company WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!? You have to explain to them, repeatedly, why this is bad and also things like why a production-ready database isn't the same as the single-instance point and click AMI they spun up... All of this because the only virtue that they know is "I shouldn't be blocked by anything." Unfortunately some of them are such skilled programmers that they'll drag entire IT and GRC organizations screaming in their wake trying to make sense of the mess.
- esotericn 7y ago
  > things like sending passwords in email or worse, put them in text files in git. This doesn't sound like the activity of someone with a high level of 'raw programming ability'.
  - busterarm 7y ago
    Being a great programmer doesn't stop you from doing really stupid shit.
- krageon 7y ago
  > Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill Desired for who? Your employer? Programmers are human beings that can do things for their own personal enjoyment, not just to increase shareholder value.
- ljw1001 7y ago
  >Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill than raw programming ability Not so much. First, great programmers are very well compensated, and second, most tech companies are organized to keep great programmers from even considering business issues: That's the land of managers, product owners, and scrum leads. Programmers are supposed to implement the requirements they're given quickly. Not how it should be maybe, but how it generally is.
  - busterarm 7y ago
    That's the way it is at Google and the FAANGs in general and companies that try to ape Google's practice but that's far from most companies. This is very much a selection bias. "Most companies" don't have the budget for the roles you've listed or aren't middle-manager heavy organizationally like Google is. Most of my career I've been my own project manager. At least in my 20 years of experience, the most effective companies have developers (sometimes in those roles you listed) involved in the requirements gathering or at least work planning phases. Does anyone really enjoy just being a cog in the "feature factory" you described? I doubt it. Given the number of broken Google SDKs or Cloud features I have to deal with in my day to day though (and game of whackamole that we have to play with them), this seems accurate.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Isn’t that part of the problem with Google? If they focused more on the actual user they wouldn’t have five failed messaging initiatives including three that they were working on simultaneously. Developers not caring about the customer explains most of Google’s major failures outside of advertising.
kmarc 7y ago
This is me. Made some money myself, made a lot for bigco's, and constantly feeling that literally anyone else is better at writing software, actual programs than I am. Also see: imposter syndrome :-)
scarface74 7y ago
What’s the use of “programming skills” in the abstract that doesn’t serve anyone’s needs? “programming” is just a tool to me - not an end goal. I’m just as proud of the code that I was smart enough not to write and use an existing product/service/module for as I am for the code that I did write.

busterarm 7y ago

Counter-counter-point: Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill than raw programming ability. Moreover, learning how to deliver value builds empathy for non-programmers who also deliver value and also the realization that programming ability is not where a company lives and dies. These are the number one and number two things most often lacking in programmers. I have to fight with "seasoned pros" on the regular to get them to stop doing things like sending passwords in email or worse, put them in text files in git. Because A) what the hell are you thinking and B) holy shit, we're a public company WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!? You have to explain to them, repeatedly, why this is bad and also things like why a production-ready database isn't the same as the single-instance point and click AMI they spun up... All of this because the only virtue that they know is "I shouldn't be blocked by anything." Unfortunately some of them are such skilled programmers that they'll drag entire IT and GRC organizations screaming in their wake trying to make sense of the mess.

esotericn 7y ago
> things like sending passwords in email or worse, put them in text files in git. This doesn't sound like the activity of someone with a high level of 'raw programming ability'.
- busterarm 7y ago
  Being a great programmer doesn't stop you from doing really stupid shit.
krageon 7y ago
> Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill Desired for who? Your employer? Programmers are human beings that can do things for their own personal enjoyment, not just to increase shareholder value.
ljw1001 7y ago
>Delivering business value is a more desired and compensated skill than raw programming ability Not so much. First, great programmers are very well compensated, and second, most tech companies are organized to keep great programmers from even considering business issues: That's the land of managers, product owners, and scrum leads. Programmers are supposed to implement the requirements they're given quickly. Not how it should be maybe, but how it generally is.
- busterarm 7y ago
  That's the way it is at Google and the FAANGs in general and companies that try to ape Google's practice but that's far from most companies. This is very much a selection bias. "Most companies" don't have the budget for the roles you've listed or aren't middle-manager heavy organizationally like Google is. Most of my career I've been my own project manager. At least in my 20 years of experience, the most effective companies have developers (sometimes in those roles you listed) involved in the requirements gathering or at least work planning phases. Does anyone really enjoy just being a cog in the "feature factory" you described? I doubt it. Given the number of broken Google SDKs or Cloud features I have to deal with in my day to day though (and game of whackamole that we have to play with them), this seems accurate.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Isn’t that part of the problem with Google? If they focused more on the actual user they wouldn’t have five failed messaging initiatives including three that they were working on simultaneously. Developers not caring about the customer explains most of Google’s major failures outside of advertising.

kmarc 7y ago

This is me. Made some money myself, made a lot for bigco's, and constantly feeling that literally anyone else is better at writing software, actual programs than I am. Also see: imposter syndrome :-)

scarface74 7y ago

What’s the use of “programming skills” in the abstract that doesn’t serve anyone’s needs? “programming” is just a tool to me - not an end goal. I’m just as proud of the code that I was smart enough not to write and use an existing product/service/module for as I am for the code that I did write.