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Here's a funny idea. How much is children's psychological damage from exposure to sexual ideas and images innate, and how much is cultural? Taboos about body pa

Here's a funny idea. How much is children's psychological damage from exposure to sexual ideas and images innate, and how much is cultural? Taboos about body parts don't seem to be entirely universal. I wonder if we could solve all child sexual abuse "simply" by treating sex as being as natural and harmless as eating food, which is also a very intimate and vulnerable activity that people have strong desires for. Are humans really wired to emotionally self-destruct as a result of experiencing the wrong kind of sexual behavior, or do we do it because of societal pressure? The revulsion that people experiencing true homophobia have towards gays looks a lot like the revulsion many people here are expressing about pedophilia. The justifications are a little different, but the emotions look similar. It's nothing like the feelings people have towards objectively worse things like death. They talk about car accidents, disease, and even murder without that sense of disgust.

aalleavitch 7y ago
On the one hand, you're not wrong in that we exacerbate the psychological damage to victims of abuse by our treatment of sexuality, and we do so on many levels. Part of the reason why victims feel so much shame about what they've been through is because we go out of our way to treat it as shameful. But that's not the scary thing here in the least; the scary thing is how absurdly many of these men are immediately and overtly predatory towards someone they evidently clearly perceive as being a target for manipulation. They contacted her unbidden for the sole purpose of getting sexual gratification out of an individual who they knew was at a disadvantage to them. What are the cultural roots driving this behavior? What does it say about the perception of sex we're engendering in these men that they're so driven to express their sexual will on someone they perceive as vulnerable? These could never constitute a healthy sexual interaction, they are compulsively extractive and impersonal. I'd argue the real damage that our society does is foster in people an addictive appetite for exploitation and satisfaction through the expression of power over others. No doubt, for these men these young children don't register in their minds as human beings, but as valued objects they can attempt to have control over. How deeply fucked up are we as a society that hordes of men seek sexual satisfaction through that kind of dynamic? What did we do to them to generate a pathological craving to dominate and feel power? I'd argue that perhaps this is just what a society based around hierarchies does.
- adventskalender 7y ago
  Women just have to learn to deal with such men. As the current top comment says, she was first cat called at age 6. So women learn early that there are men after them. I don't mean it as victim blaming or shrugging it off, either. It is in a way a sad fact of life. On the other hand, I personally think there is too much emphasis on the downside of being attractive, and not a lot on the upside. Personally, to be honest, I also think about a rich white woman walking through a poor village in a third world country. She'll be swarmed by beggars, but is she really oppressed? As another commentator answered, men typically experience nothing of that. Zero, zilch, nada - no interest by other people at all. I am not convinced that is the better side of the deal. The usual comment will be "talk to women" - I have talked to women who would be bothered if nobody would notice them on the street. So there is that. To point to another example: we learn to lock our doors, don't show our valuables around, and so on. Not because everybody else is a thief, but because a few people are thieves after our valuables. It sucks, but outrage about it doesn't really help against it. Not do draconian laws, it seems. On the internet, there are presumably over 3 billion people, so if you are fishing for predators, you can easily attract some, even if their general prevalence in the population is low. Even a "horde" would be few in relation to the several billion total. Another issue, of course, is how to explain it to young girls. I am really not sure what to tell my daughter yet.
  - aalleavitch 7y ago
    > Women just have to learn to deal with such men You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. You realize that it is the disparity itself that creates such incentives to harm each other? The rich woman is an apt comparison, because I think the extreme stratification of society is a large part of what creates this incentive to prey. Women are still today decisively limited in their access to wealth and power unless they appeal to powerful men, which is the attention they want. Most men don't get any attention because they are of relatively little worth compared to the rich and powerful, likewise their sense of the worth of women is warped and judged by the standards of the rich and in their desperation to feel powerful they prey upon women they think meet those standards. It's disgusting on every level for everyone involved except the most powerful men, the ones who sit atop the pyramid. Does this sound just?
rexgallorum2 7y ago
Even discussing this issue has become a serious taboo in itself. An anthropologist would say you are correct.
RandomBacon 7y ago
Some psycologists have looked into this. There are/were societies that treated sex as natural, even between children (not between adults and children though), but they did not have the level of technological development we do today. I have no desire to research any further into it.
clarry 7y ago
> How much is children's psychological damage from exposure to sexual ideas and images innate, and how much is cultural? I'm not actually convinced there is any damage. Dunno, around where I lived, every kid in school knew what sex is by the age of 10-12, boys probably had found porn magazines in the woods, and would've been excited if some older lady with actual boobs sent them nudes through a computer. I think parents are way more shocked and traumatized than their kids are.
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- lopmotr 7y ago
  It seems to affect different people differently. Some commit suicide and blame their childhood abuse so it was probably bad for them (or they were led to believe it was bad). But perhaps those severe cases also had severe psychological and/or physical abuse or neglect. The sexual aspect gets adults all angry but those other things are extremely common and usually perfectly legal while also ruining people's lives.

aalleavitch 7y ago

On the one hand, you're not wrong in that we exacerbate the psychological damage to victims of abuse by our treatment of sexuality, and we do so on many levels. Part of the reason why victims feel so much shame about what they've been through is because we go out of our way to treat it as shameful. But that's not the scary thing here in the least; the scary thing is how absurdly many of these men are immediately and overtly predatory towards someone they evidently clearly perceive as being a target for manipulation. They contacted her unbidden for the sole purpose of getting sexual gratification out of an individual who they knew was at a disadvantage to them. What are the cultural roots driving this behavior? What does it say about the perception of sex we're engendering in these men that they're so driven to express their sexual will on someone they perceive as vulnerable? These could never constitute a healthy sexual interaction, they are compulsively extractive and impersonal. I'd argue the real damage that our society does is foster in people an addictive appetite for exploitation and satisfaction through the expression of power over others. No doubt, for these men these young children don't register in their minds as human beings, but as valued objects they can attempt to have control over. How deeply fucked up are we as a society that hordes of men seek sexual satisfaction through that kind of dynamic? What did we do to them to generate a pathological craving to dominate and feel power? I'd argue that perhaps this is just what a society based around hierarchies does.

adventskalender 7y ago
Women just have to learn to deal with such men. As the current top comment says, she was first cat called at age 6. So women learn early that there are men after them. I don't mean it as victim blaming or shrugging it off, either. It is in a way a sad fact of life. On the other hand, I personally think there is too much emphasis on the downside of being attractive, and not a lot on the upside. Personally, to be honest, I also think about a rich white woman walking through a poor village in a third world country. She'll be swarmed by beggars, but is she really oppressed? As another commentator answered, men typically experience nothing of that. Zero, zilch, nada - no interest by other people at all. I am not convinced that is the better side of the deal. The usual comment will be "talk to women" - I have talked to women who would be bothered if nobody would notice them on the street. So there is that. To point to another example: we learn to lock our doors, don't show our valuables around, and so on. Not because everybody else is a thief, but because a few people are thieves after our valuables. It sucks, but outrage about it doesn't really help against it. Not do draconian laws, it seems. On the internet, there are presumably over 3 billion people, so if you are fishing for predators, you can easily attract some, even if their general prevalence in the population is low. Even a "horde" would be few in relation to the several billion total. Another issue, of course, is how to explain it to young girls. I am really not sure what to tell my daughter yet.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  > Women just have to learn to deal with such men You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. You realize that it is the disparity itself that creates such incentives to harm each other? The rich woman is an apt comparison, because I think the extreme stratification of society is a large part of what creates this incentive to prey. Women are still today decisively limited in their access to wealth and power unless they appeal to powerful men, which is the attention they want. Most men don't get any attention because they are of relatively little worth compared to the rich and powerful, likewise their sense of the worth of women is warped and judged by the standards of the rich and in their desperation to feel powerful they prey upon women they think meet those standards. It's disgusting on every level for everyone involved except the most powerful men, the ones who sit atop the pyramid. Does this sound just?

rexgallorum2 7y ago

Even discussing this issue has become a serious taboo in itself. An anthropologist would say you are correct.

RandomBacon 7y ago

Some psycologists have looked into this. There are/were societies that treated sex as natural, even between children (not between adults and children though), but they did not have the level of technological development we do today. I have no desire to research any further into it.

clarry 7y ago

> How much is children's psychological damage from exposure to sexual ideas and images innate, and how much is cultural? I'm not actually convinced there is any damage. Dunno, around where I lived, every kid in school knew what sex is by the age of 10-12, boys probably had found porn magazines in the woods, and would've been excited if some older lady with actual boobs sent them nudes through a computer. I think parents are way more shocked and traumatized than their kids are.

deleted 7y ago
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lopmotr 7y ago
It seems to affect different people differently. Some commit suicide and blame their childhood abuse so it was probably bad for them (or they were led to believe it was bad). But perhaps those severe cases also had severe psychological and/or physical abuse or neglect. The sexual aspect gets adults all angry but those other things are extremely common and usually perfectly legal while also ruining people's lives.