4 ms·

100% this for me, but I would go a step further. I don't want to birth kids into this exact situation. If I have kids now, I'll have to work into old age, and

100% this for me, but I would go a step further. I don't want to birth kids into this exact situation. If I have kids now, I'll have to work into old age, and so will my kids. That's a very sad situation in my view. If I achieve financial independence personally, but I have kids who will have to toil their whole lives, then I'd feel I'm making a selfish choice. How could I explain to my kids, who would see nothing but a relaxed and happy life at home, that they now owe our system 40+ years of labor? If I can achieve a level of wealth that would ensure my children could follow their dreams, then I'd love to have kids. It's very hard to find a partner that would be able to say "Well, if we don't have $5M+ by age 40, we'll be childless, and that's fine. If we do make a lot of money, we'd love to have a big family." I know lots of people here are doing it, but how can you ethically commit your unborn children to a lifetime of work? And god forbid you have a child with disabilities and don't have a sizable financial buffer...

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? You'd rather not have lived? Do you resent your parents having you? [Questions, not rhetorical statements, genuine curiosity.] It's certainly an issue for many when considering parenthood - is it fair to raise a child in this situation - but I've not seen it expressed so extremely as you have.
- anon9001 7y ago
  Honestly? No, yes, and somewhat. > So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? Not only pain, but definitely not actualized either. My life to date is a gamble that I'll maybe be able to achieve autonomy before death. If I was born into wealth, I would have started with autonomy. Not everyone is cut out for work, and I have to dedicate pretty much 100% of my being to make it happen. My week is consumed by work, my weekends are consumed by resting for more work. Maybe some people can compartmentalize work in such a way that it doesn't eat their life, but I haven't been able to figure that out yet. > You'd rather not have lived? To date? Yes, I suppose. But my hope is that I'll be eventually be able to buy my freedom, so maybe I'll eventually be thrilled that I struggled and achieved independence, if that ever happens. I'm hoping that someday, by not having kids, I'll be able to stop working and give living a try. Maybe I'll be an artist? Or work on some kind of cause to help others? I might be getting too old for sports, but it'd be nice to physically train full-time for something to see what my physical capabilities are. Or maybe read the classics and study philosophy? I don't know, the point is, I can't know, because I can't pursue anything else full-time while working. I don't really consider my 30-something years so far as much "living", because I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. Even as a kid, it was only 60 days or so of summer vacation. Incidentally, that was the time I learned to write code, which ended up becoming a job because I couldn't learn anything else while trying to pass school. > Do you resent your parents having you? Somewhat, because I wouldn't have done it myself. I will never understand how they could toil for others for their entire lives and then think it would be great if we could continue the tradition for another generation. I try not to be bitter about it because there's no sense in that. I can't really undo my parents choices, so I'm trying to make the best of things. But if I were somehow able to advise them before they decided to have me, I would have tried to politely decline existing. From my perspective, I really only exist because they wanted children, so my purpose in their life is to bring them happiness. I can really only start setting my own purpose once I achieve enough autonomy that I don't have to work to exist. If I can scrounge together enough wealth to retire before I die, I'll consider it an enormous victory. There's a good chance work will kill me before I can leave it. I'm pretty sure I'll never make enough to have kids. I'm holding out for the chance that I'll be able to restart life in my 40s, but this time with a trust fund of my own creation. Then, without work, perhaps I'll be able to achieve a good life. I know my view is considered extreme, but I don't see any other way to look at it.
  - yks 7y ago
    (Maybe unlike you, maybe not) I enjoy my work, and I even enjoy life and the beauty of the world yet I support your view, you better understand the true reality of human condition than the majority of people.
  - jlongr 7y ago
    I don't consider your view extreme. I think it is quite rational and probably what many people believe but are afraid to express in the face of the uncompromising exuberance of those who have children. >I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. This resonated with me in particular. I can't imagine placing another unwitting individual onto this ceaseless treadmill.
  - enimodas 7y ago
    I had the same problems with work, but I solved it with finding a part time job. In my country we get paid vacation so I can take a month off if I want. I have to live somewhat frugal but I don't want kids so it works for me.
  - S_Bear 7y ago
    My mother always told me that having kids was a sucker bet. My ancestors sacrificed for millions of years to have offspring and the first one to figure that out and cash out their chips is the winner. Note: I was my mother's only child and an accidental baby, which caused some resentment from both parents. I got snipped in my early 20s.
ec109685 7y ago
There are a lot of fulfilled people with jobs. Having someone leave the work force can cause more stress and harm to them, even if economically it is “fine”, so I don’t think a lifetime of working a job your children like is that bad. Quality of life is also improving generation after generation, so someone working an average job will “have” a lot more now than 50 years ago. Anyway, your post raises a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing.
lutorm 7y ago
Why do you think your kids will have to toil more than you? Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants than having a huge income, and that's definitely something you can pass on to your children. I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) Sending the signal to your children that things in life just come for free seems like a great way to ensure they aren't adapted to face adversity.
- anon9001 7y ago
  > Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. I'd like to opt out of all of this and I'm in my 30s. Unless you're counting healthcare, food, and shelter as "wants", you need to work. I'm lucky enough to still have my parents, and their advice on this is that I can stop working when I have enough money to retire. Solid advice, makes good sense. But if I look at how much money that requires, I'll probably be done in my 40s. If I had kids, it'd probably be in my 50s. If one of the companies I've worked for has a big exit, maybe I'll be done with work by 40. I don't want to prescribe that to another human, especially one that's predisposed to having my views. > I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) I'll admit I haven't given a lot of thought about parenting, because I don't think I'll ever get to do it, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the relationship would work. I'd probably let them follow the crowd and if they thrive and are happy, all is good. If I detect that they're about ready to off themselves rather than go to the office for one more day, maybe I'd open up the treasure chest and tell them to go live life as an artist. A poor parent can't offer that.
  - ludwigvan 7y ago
    > Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. Have you ever considered moving abroad? Maybe you could give a try.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? You'd rather not have lived? Do you resent your parents having you? [Questions, not rhetorical statements, genuine curiosity.] It's certainly an issue for many when considering parenthood - is it fair to raise a child in this situation - but I've not seen it expressed so extremely as you have.

anon9001 7y ago
Honestly? No, yes, and somewhat. > So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? Not only pain, but definitely not actualized either. My life to date is a gamble that I'll maybe be able to achieve autonomy before death. If I was born into wealth, I would have started with autonomy. Not everyone is cut out for work, and I have to dedicate pretty much 100% of my being to make it happen. My week is consumed by work, my weekends are consumed by resting for more work. Maybe some people can compartmentalize work in such a way that it doesn't eat their life, but I haven't been able to figure that out yet. > You'd rather not have lived? To date? Yes, I suppose. But my hope is that I'll be eventually be able to buy my freedom, so maybe I'll eventually be thrilled that I struggled and achieved independence, if that ever happens. I'm hoping that someday, by not having kids, I'll be able to stop working and give living a try. Maybe I'll be an artist? Or work on some kind of cause to help others? I might be getting too old for sports, but it'd be nice to physically train full-time for something to see what my physical capabilities are. Or maybe read the classics and study philosophy? I don't know, the point is, I can't know, because I can't pursue anything else full-time while working. I don't really consider my 30-something years so far as much "living", because I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. Even as a kid, it was only 60 days or so of summer vacation. Incidentally, that was the time I learned to write code, which ended up becoming a job because I couldn't learn anything else while trying to pass school. > Do you resent your parents having you? Somewhat, because I wouldn't have done it myself. I will never understand how they could toil for others for their entire lives and then think it would be great if we could continue the tradition for another generation. I try not to be bitter about it because there's no sense in that. I can't really undo my parents choices, so I'm trying to make the best of things. But if I were somehow able to advise them before they decided to have me, I would have tried to politely decline existing. From my perspective, I really only exist because they wanted children, so my purpose in their life is to bring them happiness. I can really only start setting my own purpose once I achieve enough autonomy that I don't have to work to exist. If I can scrounge together enough wealth to retire before I die, I'll consider it an enormous victory. There's a good chance work will kill me before I can leave it. I'm pretty sure I'll never make enough to have kids. I'm holding out for the chance that I'll be able to restart life in my 40s, but this time with a trust fund of my own creation. Then, without work, perhaps I'll be able to achieve a good life. I know my view is considered extreme, but I don't see any other way to look at it.
- yks 7y ago
  (Maybe unlike you, maybe not) I enjoy my work, and I even enjoy life and the beauty of the world yet I support your view, you better understand the true reality of human condition than the majority of people.
- jlongr 7y ago
  I don't consider your view extreme. I think it is quite rational and probably what many people believe but are afraid to express in the face of the uncompromising exuberance of those who have children. >I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. This resonated with me in particular. I can't imagine placing another unwitting individual onto this ceaseless treadmill.
- enimodas 7y ago
  I had the same problems with work, but I solved it with finding a part time job. In my country we get paid vacation so I can take a month off if I want. I have to live somewhat frugal but I don't want kids so it works for me.
- S_Bear 7y ago
  My mother always told me that having kids was a sucker bet. My ancestors sacrificed for millions of years to have offspring and the first one to figure that out and cash out their chips is the winner. Note: I was my mother's only child and an accidental baby, which caused some resentment from both parents. I got snipped in my early 20s.

ec109685 7y ago

There are a lot of fulfilled people with jobs. Having someone leave the work force can cause more stress and harm to them, even if economically it is “fine”, so I don’t think a lifetime of working a job your children like is that bad. Quality of life is also improving generation after generation, so someone working an average job will “have” a lot more now than 50 years ago. Anyway, your post raises a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing.

lutorm 7y ago

Why do you think your kids will have to toil more than you? Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants than having a huge income, and that's definitely something you can pass on to your children. I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) Sending the signal to your children that things in life just come for free seems like a great way to ensure they aren't adapted to face adversity.

anon9001 7y ago
> Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. I'd like to opt out of all of this and I'm in my 30s. Unless you're counting healthcare, food, and shelter as "wants", you need to work. I'm lucky enough to still have my parents, and their advice on this is that I can stop working when I have enough money to retire. Solid advice, makes good sense. But if I look at how much money that requires, I'll probably be done in my 40s. If I had kids, it'd probably be in my 50s. If one of the companies I've worked for has a big exit, maybe I'll be done with work by 40. I don't want to prescribe that to another human, especially one that's predisposed to having my views. > I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) I'll admit I haven't given a lot of thought about parenting, because I don't think I'll ever get to do it, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the relationship would work. I'd probably let them follow the crowd and if they thrive and are happy, all is good. If I detect that they're about ready to off themselves rather than go to the office for one more day, maybe I'd open up the treasure chest and tell them to go live life as an artist. A poor parent can't offer that.
- ludwigvan 7y ago
  > Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. Have you ever considered moving abroad? Maybe you could give a try.