4 ms·

Note that PG has two incredibly important positive factors that make his experience of parenthood much better: he has a great partner, and he is very wealthy. P

Note that PG has two incredibly important positive factors that make his experience of parenthood much better: he has a great partner, and he is very wealthy. People who don't have these power-ups might have much more mixed feelings about the experience. I would actually like to have kids, but from a young age I decided that I would not do so unless I achieved financial independence. The reason is that if I were forced to stay in a job (or other life situation) that I hated for the sake of the kids, I would start to resent them.

Liron 7y ago
I would ask yourself how likely this nightmare scenario really is, since you seem to be planning your life around it. Seems super unlikely. I'd invest in selling you insurance at like 4:1 odds that it won't come true that you would ever resent your kids because you were forced to stay in a job that you hated.
anon9001 7y ago
100% this for me, but I would go a step further. I don't want to birth kids into this exact situation. If I have kids now, I'll have to work into old age, and so will my kids. That's a very sad situation in my view. If I achieve financial independence personally, but I have kids who will have to toil their whole lives, then I'd feel I'm making a selfish choice. How could I explain to my kids, who would see nothing but a relaxed and happy life at home, that they now owe our system 40+ years of labor? If I can achieve a level of wealth that would ensure my children could follow their dreams, then I'd love to have kids. It's very hard to find a partner that would be able to say "Well, if we don't have $5M+ by age 40, we'll be childless, and that's fine. If we do make a lot of money, we'd love to have a big family." I know lots of people here are doing it, but how can you ethically commit your unborn children to a lifetime of work? And god forbid you have a child with disabilities and don't have a sizable financial buffer...
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? You'd rather not have lived? Do you resent your parents having you? [Questions, not rhetorical statements, genuine curiosity.] It's certainly an issue for many when considering parenthood - is it fair to raise a child in this situation - but I've not seen it expressed so extremely as you have.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    Honestly? No, yes, and somewhat. > So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? Not only pain, but definitely not actualized either. My life to date is a gamble that I'll maybe be able to achieve autonomy before death. If I was born into wealth, I would have started with autonomy. Not everyone is cut out for work, and I have to dedicate pretty much 100% of my being to make it happen. My week is consumed by work, my weekends are consumed by resting for more work. Maybe some people can compartmentalize work in such a way that it doesn't eat their life, but I haven't been able to figure that out yet. > You'd rather not have lived? To date? Yes, I suppose. But my hope is that I'll be eventually be able to buy my freedom, so maybe I'll eventually be thrilled that I struggled and achieved independence, if that ever happens. I'm hoping that someday, by not having kids, I'll be able to stop working and give living a try. Maybe I'll be an artist? Or work on some kind of cause to help others? I might be getting too old for sports, but it'd be nice to physically train full-time for something to see what my physical capabilities are. Or maybe read the classics and study philosophy? I don't know, the point is, I can't know, because I can't pursue anything else full-time while working. I don't really consider my 30-something years so far as much "living", because I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. Even as a kid, it was only 60 days or so of summer vacation. Incidentally, that was the time I learned to write code, which ended up becoming a job because I couldn't learn anything else while trying to pass school. > Do you resent your parents having you? Somewhat, because I wouldn't have done it myself. I will never understand how they could toil for others for their entire lives and then think it would be great if we could continue the tradition for another generation. I try not to be bitter about it because there's no sense in that. I can't really undo my parents choices, so I'm trying to make the best of things. But if I were somehow able to advise them before they decided to have me, I would have tried to politely decline existing. From my perspective, I really only exist because they wanted children, so my purpose in their life is to bring them happiness. I can really only start setting my own purpose once I achieve enough autonomy that I don't have to work to exist. If I can scrounge together enough wealth to retire before I die, I'll consider it an enormous victory. There's a good chance work will kill me before I can leave it. I'm pretty sure I'll never make enough to have kids. I'm holding out for the chance that I'll be able to restart life in my 40s, but this time with a trust fund of my own creation. Then, without work, perhaps I'll be able to achieve a good life. I know my view is considered extreme, but I don't see any other way to look at it.
- ec109685 7y ago
  There are a lot of fulfilled people with jobs. Having someone leave the work force can cause more stress and harm to them, even if economically it is “fine”, so I don’t think a lifetime of working a job your children like is that bad. Quality of life is also improving generation after generation, so someone working an average job will “have” a lot more now than 50 years ago. Anyway, your post raises a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing.
- lutorm 7y ago
  Why do you think your kids will have to toil more than you? Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants than having a huge income, and that's definitely something you can pass on to your children. I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) Sending the signal to your children that things in life just come for free seems like a great way to ensure they aren't adapted to face adversity.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    > Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. I'd like to opt out of all of this and I'm in my 30s. Unless you're counting healthcare, food, and shelter as "wants", you need to work. I'm lucky enough to still have my parents, and their advice on this is that I can stop working when I have enough money to retire. Solid advice, makes good sense. But if I look at how much money that requires, I'll probably be done in my 40s. If I had kids, it'd probably be in my 50s. If one of the companies I've worked for has a big exit, maybe I'll be done with work by 40. I don't want to prescribe that to another human, especially one that's predisposed to having my views. > I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) I'll admit I haven't given a lot of thought about parenting, because I don't think I'll ever get to do it, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the relationship would work. I'd probably let them follow the crowd and if they thrive and are happy, all is good. If I detect that they're about ready to off themselves rather than go to the office for one more day, maybe I'd open up the treasure chest and tell them to go live life as an artist. A poor parent can't offer that.
    - ludwigvan 7y ago
      > Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. Have you ever considered moving abroad? Maybe you could give a try.
mobjack 7y ago
Having kids is not that expensive if you have at least a middle class income. You can still advance in your career while having a good work life balance. Very few are in their ideal situation when having kids and yet they still have positive experiences being a parent. Those without kids and new parents think they need to be perfect, but in reality, there is no difference between being perfect and being good enough when it comes to raising kids.
- usaar333 7y ago
  Social pressure tends to push parents toward perfection. In fact as income goes up, expenses go up. A kid in the Bay Area will realistically cost a professional (upper middle class), dual working couple over $1m through college; that certainly is expensive.
paulcole 7y ago
Also don’t forget that he has a carefully cultivated brand to maintain. You think he’s going to be like, “hate my kids.”
remarkEon 7y ago
>...I decided that I would not do so unless I achieved financial independence. This, right here, encapsulates what is so wrong with this present iteration of society. Having kids is now something that you do if you're wealthy and can afford it, or if you're extremely poor and cannot afford birth control (or just don't know about it ... before the downvotes come, yes I know there are a lot of factors that influence high birth rates among poorer demographics). This isn't a sustainable situation, at all. We need a complete realigning of what society - and indeed Civilization - is supposed to be about. Family formation is used as an economic marker today, for a ton of policy proposals. More families means more purchases of stuff. Fewer families means less buying of stuff, and leads to policies that might be tuned to address the economic "problem" but don't really address the societal one.
- kelnos 7y ago
  The "stuff" thing really resonated with me. I value not having a lot of stuff. I prefer less clutter, fewer things to maintain or care about. I hate that our society is often centered around the acquisition of material things, most of which have no practical use, and even dubious aesthetic use. I'm certainly not completely spartan, and do have stuff, but I try to be careful about what I let into my home (and admittedly have a few boxes of things that I really need to go through and probably get rid of). My sister and her husband own more kid-related stuff than I own stuff in total. If I do have kids, I don't want that, but struggle to see how it's possible. The necessities alone are pretty numerous, and I find it hard to believe it's possible to raise a kid without at least some books, toys, etc.
bob33212 7y ago
I have been a huge fan of PG for 15 years. But early on I realized his advice about starting a company is similarly for people in a different situation. If I had rich supportive parents and no student debt I would certainly have started a company right out of school.
anonu 7y ago
Life decisions and outcomes go through a big calculation engine. Every life scenario has pros and cons, associated probabilities and timeframes. So, financial independence: obvious pros. Cons: low probability event in short time frame. Kids: pros: they're awesome. They make you very happy on balance. (I would assign a high probability to that). Obviously a subjective point of view. They are also way lower maintenance (cost) than you think. Cons: they take up a lot of your time. Also there are interaction effects. Getting kids will reduce your available time needed to work to get financial independence. So you need to weigh these things out. Point is, money (or lack of it) shouldn't be too much of a deciding factor in the kids decision. IMHO

Liron 7y ago

I would ask yourself how likely this nightmare scenario really is, since you seem to be planning your life around it. Seems super unlikely. I'd invest in selling you insurance at like 4:1 odds that it won't come true that you would ever resent your kids because you were forced to stay in a job that you hated.

anon9001 7y ago

100% this for me, but I would go a step further. I don't want to birth kids into this exact situation. If I have kids now, I'll have to work into old age, and so will my kids. That's a very sad situation in my view. If I achieve financial independence personally, but I have kids who will have to toil their whole lives, then I'd feel I'm making a selfish choice. How could I explain to my kids, who would see nothing but a relaxed and happy life at home, that they now owe our system 40+ years of labor? If I can achieve a level of wealth that would ensure my children could follow their dreams, then I'd love to have kids. It's very hard to find a partner that would be able to say "Well, if we don't have $5M+ by age 40, we'll be childless, and that's fine. If we do make a lot of money, we'd love to have a big family." I know lots of people here are doing it, but how can you ethically commit your unborn children to a lifetime of work? And god forbid you have a child with disabilities and don't have a sizable financial buffer...

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? You'd rather not have lived? Do you resent your parents having you? [Questions, not rhetorical statements, genuine curiosity.] It's certainly an issue for many when considering parenthood - is it fair to raise a child in this situation - but I've not seen it expressed so extremely as you have.
- anon9001 7y ago
  Honestly? No, yes, and somewhat. > So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in? Not only pain, but definitely not actualized either. My life to date is a gamble that I'll maybe be able to achieve autonomy before death. If I was born into wealth, I would have started with autonomy. Not everyone is cut out for work, and I have to dedicate pretty much 100% of my being to make it happen. My week is consumed by work, my weekends are consumed by resting for more work. Maybe some people can compartmentalize work in such a way that it doesn't eat their life, but I haven't been able to figure that out yet. > You'd rather not have lived? To date? Yes, I suppose. But my hope is that I'll be eventually be able to buy my freedom, so maybe I'll eventually be thrilled that I struggled and achieved independence, if that ever happens. I'm hoping that someday, by not having kids, I'll be able to stop working and give living a try. Maybe I'll be an artist? Or work on some kind of cause to help others? I might be getting too old for sports, but it'd be nice to physically train full-time for something to see what my physical capabilities are. Or maybe read the classics and study philosophy? I don't know, the point is, I can't know, because I can't pursue anything else full-time while working. I don't really consider my 30-something years so far as much "living", because I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. Even as a kid, it was only 60 days or so of summer vacation. Incidentally, that was the time I learned to write code, which ended up becoming a job because I couldn't learn anything else while trying to pass school. > Do you resent your parents having you? Somewhat, because I wouldn't have done it myself. I will never understand how they could toil for others for their entire lives and then think it would be great if we could continue the tradition for another generation. I try not to be bitter about it because there's no sense in that. I can't really undo my parents choices, so I'm trying to make the best of things. But if I were somehow able to advise them before they decided to have me, I would have tried to politely decline existing. From my perspective, I really only exist because they wanted children, so my purpose in their life is to bring them happiness. I can really only start setting my own purpose once I achieve enough autonomy that I don't have to work to exist. If I can scrounge together enough wealth to retire before I die, I'll consider it an enormous victory. There's a good chance work will kill me before I can leave it. I'm pretty sure I'll never make enough to have kids. I'm holding out for the chance that I'll be able to restart life in my 40s, but this time with a trust fund of my own creation. Then, without work, perhaps I'll be able to achieve a good life. I know my view is considered extreme, but I don't see any other way to look at it.
ec109685 7y ago
There are a lot of fulfilled people with jobs. Having someone leave the work force can cause more stress and harm to them, even if economically it is “fine”, so I don’t think a lifetime of working a job your children like is that bad. Quality of life is also improving generation after generation, so someone working an average job will “have” a lot more now than 50 years ago. Anyway, your post raises a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing.
lutorm 7y ago
Why do you think your kids will have to toil more than you? Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants than having a huge income, and that's definitely something you can pass on to your children. I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) Sending the signal to your children that things in life just come for free seems like a great way to ensure they aren't adapted to face adversity.
- anon9001 7y ago
  > Achieving financial independence is more about prioritizing your wants Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. I'd like to opt out of all of this and I'm in my 30s. Unless you're counting healthcare, food, and shelter as "wants", you need to work. I'm lucky enough to still have my parents, and their advice on this is that I can stop working when I have enough money to retire. Solid advice, makes good sense. But if I look at how much money that requires, I'll probably be done in my 40s. If I had kids, it'd probably be in my 50s. If one of the companies I've worked for has a big exit, maybe I'll be done with work by 40. I don't want to prescribe that to another human, especially one that's predisposed to having my views. > I think it would be a lot healthier to grow up like that than as a child who could have whatever they wanted (monetarily.) I'll admit I haven't given a lot of thought about parenting, because I don't think I'll ever get to do it, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the relationship would work. I'd probably let them follow the crowd and if they thrive and are happy, all is good. If I detect that they're about ready to off themselves rather than go to the office for one more day, maybe I'd open up the treasure chest and tell them to go live life as an artist. A poor parent can't offer that.
  - ludwigvan 7y ago
    > Except that's not true... Life in the US is expensive. If you stop earning money, you go homeless and hungry. Have you ever considered moving abroad? Maybe you could give a try.

mobjack 7y ago

Having kids is not that expensive if you have at least a middle class income. You can still advance in your career while having a good work life balance. Very few are in their ideal situation when having kids and yet they still have positive experiences being a parent. Those without kids and new parents think they need to be perfect, but in reality, there is no difference between being perfect and being good enough when it comes to raising kids.

usaar333 7y ago
Social pressure tends to push parents toward perfection. In fact as income goes up, expenses go up. A kid in the Bay Area will realistically cost a professional (upper middle class), dual working couple over $1m through college; that certainly is expensive.

paulcole 7y ago

Also don’t forget that he has a carefully cultivated brand to maintain. You think he’s going to be like, “hate my kids.”

remarkEon 7y ago

>...I decided that I would not do so unless I achieved financial independence. This, right here, encapsulates what is so wrong with this present iteration of society. Having kids is now something that you do if you're wealthy and can afford it, or if you're extremely poor and cannot afford birth control (or just don't know about it ... before the downvotes come, yes I know there are a lot of factors that influence high birth rates among poorer demographics). This isn't a sustainable situation, at all. We need a complete realigning of what society - and indeed Civilization - is supposed to be about. Family formation is used as an economic marker today, for a ton of policy proposals. More families means more purchases of stuff. Fewer families means less buying of stuff, and leads to policies that might be tuned to address the economic "problem" but don't really address the societal one.

kelnos 7y ago
The "stuff" thing really resonated with me. I value not having a lot of stuff. I prefer less clutter, fewer things to maintain or care about. I hate that our society is often centered around the acquisition of material things, most of which have no practical use, and even dubious aesthetic use. I'm certainly not completely spartan, and do have stuff, but I try to be careful about what I let into my home (and admittedly have a few boxes of things that I really need to go through and probably get rid of). My sister and her husband own more kid-related stuff than I own stuff in total. If I do have kids, I don't want that, but struggle to see how it's possible. The necessities alone are pretty numerous, and I find it hard to believe it's possible to raise a kid without at least some books, toys, etc.

bob33212 7y ago

I have been a huge fan of PG for 15 years. But early on I realized his advice about starting a company is similarly for people in a different situation. If I had rich supportive parents and no student debt I would certainly have started a company right out of school.

anonu 7y ago

Life decisions and outcomes go through a big calculation engine. Every life scenario has pros and cons, associated probabilities and timeframes. So, financial independence: obvious pros. Cons: low probability event in short time frame. Kids: pros: they're awesome. They make you very happy on balance. (I would assign a high probability to that). Obviously a subjective point of view. They are also way lower maintenance (cost) than you think. Cons: they take up a lot of your time. Also there are interaction effects. Getting kids will reduce your available time needed to work to get financial independence. So you need to weigh these things out. Point is, money (or lack of it) shouldn't be too much of a deciding factor in the kids decision. IMHO