7 ms·

You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement. If I say, "I support" and you say, "I support no

by abnry 7y ago

You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement. If I say, "I support" and you say, "I support not X, and if you weren't so blind you'd think that too," that's being condescending because you are assuming that someone (a) has fundamentally the same values than you but is (b) too stupid to see it. The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) for fundamental reasons different than yours, not because they basically agree with you and are too stupid to understand. This is different than merely arguing truth claims, because fundamentally political choice is a choice. There is no One True Way(TM) to govern and people prefer different things.

DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
> The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) Why do you assume we don't value those things? Isn't that _you_ being condescending now?
- abnry 7y ago
  Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you. An assumption isn't necessarily condescending. I assumed I was talking to someone on the left side of politics and was giving examples for the sake of an argument. If those examples do not in fact work then I can just as well pick other ones.
  - traderjane 7y ago
    > You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement. > Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you. Indeed this is a communication mystery.
- vageli 7y ago
  > > The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) > Why do you assume we don't value those things? Isn't that _you_ being condescending now? If you assume people do share the values, or if you assume they do not, you are still assuming to know their values. Better to just ask the person and start the conversation from there rather than shut down debate with something along the lines of "You'd agree with me if you weren't misled by X".
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
>people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) for fundamental reasons different than yours // You're right, but in the election run-up people living on minimum wage, who complained we needed a change because of the rich getting too rich, also were convinced that Labour's tax increases were a devastating blow to them personally; tax increases that a family of two well-paid professionals would be unlikely to even be affected by. The reason they hate those taxes is not because they're bad for them, they would undoubtedly be benefited. Nor is it because they actually have a financial basis for a belief in lower taxes for the extraordinarily well off. It's a matter of advertising -- the private press splash an advert "Marxist Money Madness" or whatever and tell the people they're going to be hit by massive tax increases costing taxpayers 1000s. Of course it's a carefully tailored half-truth. It does cost taxpayers _who_are_affected_ thousands but people on gross wages below £80k aren't. The message the minimum wage, or benefits only, households get is "if Labour get in we will have to pay thousands more tax" (which to them is a lot, despite the tax rises not actually applying to them). They also don't appear to realise taxes pay for running the country; things they benefit from (health, education, roads, trade relations, ...) or if they do that reducing taxes won't just make these things cheaper but mean they have to pay individually (and pay a profit to capitalists as part of that deal). If they do realise these things there's no rational reason for then to support them; really there isn't, not for the vast majority of the populous. Many people can't do basic percentages, they genuinely just trust the headlines. The BBC have failed in refusing to call out lies because that would be "targeted" at one particular party (apparently 80% of their Facebook posts were factually flawed) because they are the ones telling the lies. And why? Well look at the headlines post-election many Tories made many hundreds of £millions. Everyone else is working on inputs to value creation and they're playing the system and walking away with all the value. In short, yes, there are genuine differences in political opinion. But there is also a massive deficit of understanding too.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Even with perfect understanding, there are many people who believe along the lines of "the government which governs least governs best." Specifically, if you promised that every year you'd take 5% of the money of everyone richer than me, that I'd get a healthy slice of it, the rest would be spent on programs I approve of, and that there is no possible future in which that new tax would apply to me, I'd still vote against it. I don't think it's because I'm too stupid or ill-informed to understand that it would be "good for me".
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by abnry 7y ago

DaiPlusPlus 7y ago

> The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) Why do you assume we don't value those things? Isn't that _you_ being condescending now?

abnry 7y ago
Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you. An assumption isn't necessarily condescending. I assumed I was talking to someone on the left side of politics and was giving examples for the sake of an argument. If those examples do not in fact work then I can just as well pick other ones.
- traderjane 7y ago
  > You are missing the point. If I say, "I support X" and you say, "I support not X," that's just a disagreement. > Why do you use the word "we"? I wasn't directing my comment to you. Indeed this is a communication mystery.
vageli 7y ago
> > The reality is that people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) > Why do you assume we don't value those things? Isn't that _you_ being condescending now? If you assume people do share the values, or if you assume they do not, you are still assuming to know their values. Better to just ask the person and start the conversation from there rather than shut down debate with something along the lines of "You'd agree with me if you weren't misled by X".

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

>people can value something different than you (less government intervention, less restrictions on speech, lower taxes) for fundamental reasons different than yours // You're right, but in the election run-up people living on minimum wage, who complained we needed a change because of the rich getting too rich, also were convinced that Labour's tax increases were a devastating blow to them personally; tax increases that a family of two well-paid professionals would be unlikely to even be affected by. The reason they hate those taxes is not because they're bad for them, they would undoubtedly be benefited. Nor is it because they actually have a financial basis for a belief in lower taxes for the extraordinarily well off. It's a matter of advertising -- the private press splash an advert "Marxist Money Madness" or whatever and tell the people they're going to be hit by massive tax increases costing taxpayers 1000s. Of course it's a carefully tailored half-truth. It does cost taxpayers _who_are_affected_ thousands but people on gross wages below £80k aren't. The message the minimum wage, or benefits only, households get is "if Labour get in we will have to pay thousands more tax" (which to them is a lot, despite the tax rises not actually applying to them). They also don't appear to realise taxes pay for running the country; things they benefit from (health, education, roads, trade relations, ...) or if they do that reducing taxes won't just make these things cheaper but mean they have to pay individually (and pay a profit to capitalists as part of that deal). If they do realise these things there's no rational reason for then to support them; really there isn't, not for the vast majority of the populous. Many people can't do basic percentages, they genuinely just trust the headlines. The BBC have failed in refusing to call out lies because that would be "targeted" at one particular party (apparently 80% of their Facebook posts were factually flawed) because they are the ones telling the lies. And why? Well look at the headlines post-election many Tories made many hundreds of £millions. Everyone else is working on inputs to value creation and they're playing the system and walking away with all the value. In short, yes, there are genuine differences in political opinion. But there is also a massive deficit of understanding too.

sokoloff 7y ago
Even with perfect understanding, there are many people who believe along the lines of "the government which governs least governs best." Specifically, if you promised that every year you'd take 5% of the money of everyone richer than me, that I'd get a healthy slice of it, the rest would be spent on programs I approve of, and that there is no possible future in which that new tax would apply to me, I'd still vote against it. I don't think it's because I'm too stupid or ill-informed to understand that it would be "good for me".

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]