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Find a lawyer, ASAP, that specializes in employment and / or IP. This is a legal issue and you need to solve it with people that know the law. Talking, signing,

Find a lawyer, ASAP, that specializes in employment and / or IP. This is a legal issue and you need to solve it with people that know the law. Talking, signing, admitting things, etc, only hurt you. Depending on your country and state, as well as your employment agreement, there are a lot of impactful variables. Intuition and personal relationships are not going to help you solve this issue, especially, absent knowing the law and your position.

awillen 7y ago
Listen to this person. The people telling you to talk to your employer are giving you terrible advice. You can still do that after spending 30 minutes with a lawyer, but you can't take back anything you say before you talk to a lawyer.
- batoure 7y ago
  Always always always talk to a lawyer. If your dog walker (at the peak of their career) friend was like “I need a website” you wouldn’t be like “learn JavaScript” you would say find a programmer. If I had 10 dollars for every time I had to spend weeks convincing an engineer friend to talk to an attorney and then when they finally did it got dealt with in 30 minutes... Lawyers are just “full stack law architects” do your self a favor
  - thayne 7y ago
    I find kneejerk advice to consult lawyers for anything that concerns the law frustrating for two reasons: 1. It never seems to be accompanied with advice on how to find the appropriate kind of lawyer. 2. It almost always seems to ignore the fact that lawyers are expensive. Sure, there are times when that cost is warranted, but I don't think it is right to ignore it. For example, in this case, it is probably only worth consulting a lawyer if the amount of compensation on the line is significantly more than the amount the OP would pay the lawyer. And what if the person you are advising can't afford a lawyer? Also, concerning your metaphor, I would not just immediately say "find a programmer". I would find out what kind of website they wanted, then depending on their technical skills and what they wanted (and how close a friend they are) I might teach them how to make a website themselves, or point them toward more user-friendly tools to create websites. I'd only suggest they hire a web designer if they needed something really complicated or didn't have the skill or time to learn how to make a website themselves.
    - charlesdm 7y ago
      If this isn't a situation to consult a lawyer on, then I don't know what is. He needs an IP lawyer with notions of employment law of the jurisdiction he's in. If a company wants to formally acquire the rights to the IP.. it's safe to say it's worth something.
    - hef19898 7y ago
      So basically in that example you are the lawyer consulting your dog walking friend. Sounds like solid advice to me.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the people giving you advice so it might be good/neutral/detrimental. Get a lawyer, one that specializes in IP and if possible to find those skills in one person as well as in employment law in your place of residence.
      - ownagefool 7y ago
        In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)
        tomatocracy 7y ago
        There's a huge difference between going to litigation and just asking a lawyer what your legal position is (which needn't take too long or be too expensive) so you know the rough shape of what your 'worst case' looks like. Most businesses are reasonable and willing to do what's 'fair' even if that goes beyond what they might be legally required to do because employee goodwill is worth a lot to them and the cost to them of litigation is also high. But they will also have an idea of what their legal position is and that will inform their idea of what 'fair' is. A good lawyer will tell you what they'd expect you to be able to negotiate commercially and tell you to try that first. Your employer doesn't even need to know you consulted a lawyer.
  - pcmaffey 7y ago
    You don’t need javascript to build a website. You don’t need a doctor to solve every health problem. And you don’t need a lawyer to resolve every conflict between people. Eg. Where would the internet be if only programmers built websites?
  - batoure 7y ago
    Given some responses to this I will happily clarify. If you are in the united states the state you live in will have a state bar website where you can find attorneys in your area that specialize in different types of law. A number of people here have talked about the idea of talking to an IP lawyer. I think in this case I would recommend talking to an employment attorney. Most attorneys will give you an initial consult for free and then tell you what it would cost to move forward.
caseysoftware 7y ago
Exactly this. And when you sit down with the lawyer, make sure to bring your employment contract and IP agreement. They'll need those to give you any informed opinions.
duxup 7y ago
Yup. He needs someone who understands the law and the specifics, and who has his interests in mind.
nwallin 7y ago
This, a million times this. We can't even begin to think about the answers to this question with knowing what state the employer and/or poster are in. Nor can we begin to think about it without the specifics of the application and the field that the employer develops in. The ultimate conclusion of this will ultimately boil down to minutiae. Minutiae that we are neither privy to nor have the knowledge or experience to reasonably discuss.
runninganyways 7y ago
But this is the obvious answer. OP didn't need you to tell him to get a lawyer. If he had that kind of money he'd be talking to a lawyer not us. I mean I know you meant well and I know I probably sound like a negative jerk but yeah of course it's a legal issue and he should talk to a lawyer. It's like if someone has a stomach ache and they asked online what it might be and someone tells them they should see a doctor. It's obvious and doesn't need to be said. I think what OP needs are good resources so that he can educate himself as much as possible. Yeah he also needs a lawyer, if this is that important to him, but being informed will be a force multiplier here. in my experience people are generally shity when you ask for legal advice online but you could try that. For example stack exchange has one but you'll probably get condemned on there instead of getting helpful advice. An out-of-the-box idea might be to find a paralegal on FIVERR and ask them to dig up resources to read up on. Again I apologize for being such a jerk about your suggestion. I'm a terrible person.
- irvingprime 7y ago
  I disagree. Learning the ins and outs of the law and of IP negotiations - a very specialized and cut-throat field - in a few days or maybe weeks is out of the question. If he can't talk to a lawyer, he's going to lose. Period. Maybe very badly. After having already screwed up, now is not the time to half-ass it. You're not a terrible person but you've given absolutely terrible advice.
  - runninganyways 7y ago
    At what point did I tell OP to become an expert on IP law? Nowhere. My advice to OP was to educate himself so that no matter what he did he could be more effective. > You're not a terrible person but you've given absolutely terrible advice You didn't read my advice correctly and I place zero value in your opinion about me being a good person or not especially considering you thought you had enough information to even bring up the topic based on one short internet comment.
    - irvingprime 7y ago
yolo42 7y ago
Thank you for the comment! I totally get what you and other threads are trying to say and I don't disagree with what you are saying. I probably should have cleared this out in my original post (my bad) that I do not wish to pursue the legal route. I personally feel that in my case, it will just drain everyone's energy for not much gain at the end. Also, personal relationships matter to me as well. I'm trying to find ways to get compensated for the time and effort I've put into it. If not financially, then in some other forms. But I don't have any ideas.
- iudqnolq 7y ago
  In that case, have you considered getting a lawyer just for the advice and not telling anyone about it? A lawyer you hire won't go around making threats without your permission, and they can at a minimum tell you if your plan has a massive flaw you've overlooked.
- xiphias2 7y ago
  If you really want a to have a part of the product that you created you need to know your options/rights. If you don't want to spend money on lawyers, at least read all relevant laws (which is important even if you have lawyer around you). It's also better if your company doesn't know about your preparation, as it can be used as defence weapon in the negotiations only if you would get a worse position than what you have rights for anyways. Preparing in secret also helps you get more evidence for your case.
- DoubleGlazing 7y ago
  It's worth noting that your employer will probably have already spoken to a lawyer about this, or will be prepared to if you don't comply with their request. A 30 minute session with a lawyer will give you much more insight in to how to deal with this situation more than what you can learn from an internet forum.
- garmaine 7y ago
  You are not understanding. You do not only talk to lawyers to sue people. Lawyers are the only people here who know the law and are on your side. You should not be asking HN what your options are: you should be asking your lawyer what your options are. And your lawyer, not the company's lawyer.
OJFord 7y ago
Unless not in the US, in which case suddenly turning up with a lawyer might be like bringing a gun to an amicable discussion.
- beefhash 7y ago
  Parent said nothing about "turning up with a lawyer". You can get legal advice from a lawyer without just going in guns blazing.
giancarlostoro 7y ago
> Find a lawyer, ASAP, that specializes in employment and / or IP. This is a legal issue and you need to solve it with people that know the law. Talking, signing, admitting things, etc, only hurt you. This. Anything you say. Anything at all. Can. And will be used against you in a court of law. Your job wants your code. Personally I would lawyer up and start applying for new jobs elsewhere and ensure they wont pull the same. Just never work on code from their hardware on their resources (internet, power, etc).
brandnewlow 7y ago
Have used George Grellas (longtime HN poster) for things like this in the past and been very happy: http://grellas.com/ http://grellas.com/
- NetOpWibby 7y ago
  Thanks, bookmarked.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Seconded, I've referred lots of people to George over the years and never heard a single complaint.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gbin 7y ago
Blindly going to a lawyer can also be a bad advice. From my experience it opens a huge can of worms: first the situation may switch to a full on conflict for years. Your lawyer is incentivized to make you angry and fight to death, open other fronts etc... Another aspect some people might not understand too especially in low litigation countries is that "legal" and "fair" are different concepts. Reserve this kind of misery for when the outcome is actually life defining for you.
- chki 7y ago
  Your lawyer is incentivized to do what you describe but if they are a good lawyer the won't do that. They will show you possible options of going forward and put you in a decision to decide. The tricky part is probably finding such a good lawyer and coming up with the money to pay them. Edit: to add to you second point: If "legal" and "fair" are so different, that's exactly why you can't rely on your intuition but need to consult an expert.
paultopia 7y ago
This is the correct answer. It is the only answer.

awillen 7y ago

Listen to this person. The people telling you to talk to your employer are giving you terrible advice. You can still do that after spending 30 minutes with a lawyer, but you can't take back anything you say before you talk to a lawyer.

batoure 7y ago
Always always always talk to a lawyer. If your dog walker (at the peak of their career) friend was like “I need a website” you wouldn’t be like “learn JavaScript” you would say find a programmer. If I had 10 dollars for every time I had to spend weeks convincing an engineer friend to talk to an attorney and then when they finally did it got dealt with in 30 minutes... Lawyers are just “full stack law architects” do your self a favor
- thayne 7y ago
  I find kneejerk advice to consult lawyers for anything that concerns the law frustrating for two reasons: 1. It never seems to be accompanied with advice on how to find the appropriate kind of lawyer. 2. It almost always seems to ignore the fact that lawyers are expensive. Sure, there are times when that cost is warranted, but I don't think it is right to ignore it. For example, in this case, it is probably only worth consulting a lawyer if the amount of compensation on the line is significantly more than the amount the OP would pay the lawyer. And what if the person you are advising can't afford a lawyer? Also, concerning your metaphor, I would not just immediately say "find a programmer". I would find out what kind of website they wanted, then depending on their technical skills and what they wanted (and how close a friend they are) I might teach them how to make a website themselves, or point them toward more user-friendly tools to create websites. I'd only suggest they hire a web designer if they needed something really complicated or didn't have the skill or time to learn how to make a website themselves.
  - charlesdm 7y ago
    If this isn't a situation to consult a lawyer on, then I don't know what is. He needs an IP lawyer with notions of employment law of the jurisdiction he's in. If a company wants to formally acquire the rights to the IP.. it's safe to say it's worth something.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    So basically in that example you are the lawyer consulting your dog walking friend. Sounds like solid advice to me.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the people giving you advice so it might be good/neutral/detrimental. Get a lawyer, one that specializes in IP and if possible to find those skills in one person as well as in employment law in your place of residence.
    - ownagefool 7y ago
      In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)
      - tomatocracy 7y ago
        There's a huge difference between going to litigation and just asking a lawyer what your legal position is (which needn't take too long or be too expensive) so you know the rough shape of what your 'worst case' looks like. Most businesses are reasonable and willing to do what's 'fair' even if that goes beyond what they might be legally required to do because employee goodwill is worth a lot to them and the cost to them of litigation is also high. But they will also have an idea of what their legal position is and that will inform their idea of what 'fair' is. A good lawyer will tell you what they'd expect you to be able to negotiate commercially and tell you to try that first. Your employer doesn't even need to know you consulted a lawyer.
- pcmaffey 7y ago
  You don’t need javascript to build a website. You don’t need a doctor to solve every health problem. And you don’t need a lawyer to resolve every conflict between people. Eg. Where would the internet be if only programmers built websites?
- batoure 7y ago
  Given some responses to this I will happily clarify. If you are in the united states the state you live in will have a state bar website where you can find attorneys in your area that specialize in different types of law. A number of people here have talked about the idea of talking to an IP lawyer. I think in this case I would recommend talking to an employment attorney. Most attorneys will give you an initial consult for free and then tell you what it would cost to move forward.

caseysoftware 7y ago

Exactly this. And when you sit down with the lawyer, make sure to bring your employment contract and IP agreement. They'll need those to give you any informed opinions.

duxup 7y ago

Yup. He needs someone who understands the law and the specifics, and who has his interests in mind.

nwallin 7y ago

This, a million times this. We can't even begin to think about the answers to this question with knowing what state the employer and/or poster are in. Nor can we begin to think about it without the specifics of the application and the field that the employer develops in. The ultimate conclusion of this will ultimately boil down to minutiae. Minutiae that we are neither privy to nor have the knowledge or experience to reasonably discuss.

runninganyways 7y ago

But this is the obvious answer. OP didn't need you to tell him to get a lawyer. If he had that kind of money he'd be talking to a lawyer not us. I mean I know you meant well and I know I probably sound like a negative jerk but yeah of course it's a legal issue and he should talk to a lawyer. It's like if someone has a stomach ache and they asked online what it might be and someone tells them they should see a doctor. It's obvious and doesn't need to be said. I think what OP needs are good resources so that he can educate himself as much as possible. Yeah he also needs a lawyer, if this is that important to him, but being informed will be a force multiplier here. in my experience people are generally shity when you ask for legal advice online but you could try that. For example stack exchange has one but you'll probably get condemned on there instead of getting helpful advice. An out-of-the-box idea might be to find a paralegal on FIVERR and ask them to dig up resources to read up on. Again I apologize for being such a jerk about your suggestion. I'm a terrible person.

irvingprime 7y ago
I disagree. Learning the ins and outs of the law and of IP negotiations - a very specialized and cut-throat field - in a few days or maybe weeks is out of the question. If he can't talk to a lawyer, he's going to lose. Period. Maybe very badly. After having already screwed up, now is not the time to half-ass it. You're not a terrible person but you've given absolutely terrible advice.
- runninganyways 7y ago
  At what point did I tell OP to become an expert on IP law? Nowhere. My advice to OP was to educate himself so that no matter what he did he could be more effective. > You're not a terrible person but you've given absolutely terrible advice You didn't read my advice correctly and I place zero value in your opinion about me being a good person or not especially considering you thought you had enough information to even bring up the topic based on one short internet comment.
  - irvingprime 7y ago

yolo42 7y ago

Thank you for the comment! I totally get what you and other threads are trying to say and I don't disagree with what you are saying. I probably should have cleared this out in my original post (my bad) that I do not wish to pursue the legal route. I personally feel that in my case, it will just drain everyone's energy for not much gain at the end. Also, personal relationships matter to me as well. I'm trying to find ways to get compensated for the time and effort I've put into it. If not financially, then in some other forms. But I don't have any ideas.

iudqnolq 7y ago
In that case, have you considered getting a lawyer just for the advice and not telling anyone about it? A lawyer you hire won't go around making threats without your permission, and they can at a minimum tell you if your plan has a massive flaw you've overlooked.
xiphias2 7y ago
If you really want a to have a part of the product that you created you need to know your options/rights. If you don't want to spend money on lawyers, at least read all relevant laws (which is important even if you have lawyer around you). It's also better if your company doesn't know about your preparation, as it can be used as defence weapon in the negotiations only if you would get a worse position than what you have rights for anyways. Preparing in secret also helps you get more evidence for your case.
DoubleGlazing 7y ago
It's worth noting that your employer will probably have already spoken to a lawyer about this, or will be prepared to if you don't comply with their request. A 30 minute session with a lawyer will give you much more insight in to how to deal with this situation more than what you can learn from an internet forum.
garmaine 7y ago
You are not understanding. You do not only talk to lawyers to sue people. Lawyers are the only people here who know the law and are on your side. You should not be asking HN what your options are: you should be asking your lawyer what your options are. And your lawyer, not the company's lawyer.

OJFord 7y ago

Unless not in the US, in which case suddenly turning up with a lawyer might be like bringing a gun to an amicable discussion.

beefhash 7y ago
Parent said nothing about "turning up with a lawyer". You can get legal advice from a lawyer without just going in guns blazing.

giancarlostoro 7y ago

> Find a lawyer, ASAP, that specializes in employment and / or IP. This is a legal issue and you need to solve it with people that know the law. Talking, signing, admitting things, etc, only hurt you. This. Anything you say. Anything at all. Can. And will be used against you in a court of law. Your job wants your code. Personally I would lawyer up and start applying for new jobs elsewhere and ensure they wont pull the same. Just never work on code from their hardware on their resources (internet, power, etc).

brandnewlow 7y ago

Have used George Grellas (longtime HN poster) for things like this in the past and been very happy: http://grellas.com/ http://grellas.com/

NetOpWibby 7y ago
Thanks, bookmarked.
jacquesm 7y ago
Seconded, I've referred lots of people to George over the years and never heard a single complaint.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gbin 7y ago

Blindly going to a lawyer can also be a bad advice. From my experience it opens a huge can of worms: first the situation may switch to a full on conflict for years. Your lawyer is incentivized to make you angry and fight to death, open other fronts etc... Another aspect some people might not understand too especially in low litigation countries is that "legal" and "fair" are different concepts. Reserve this kind of misery for when the outcome is actually life defining for you.

chki 7y ago
Your lawyer is incentivized to do what you describe but if they are a good lawyer the won't do that. They will show you possible options of going forward and put you in a decision to decide. The tricky part is probably finding such a good lawyer and coming up with the money to pay them. Edit: to add to you second point: If "legal" and "fair" are so different, that's exactly why you can't rely on your intuition but need to consult an expert.

paultopia 7y ago

This is the correct answer. It is the only answer.