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A genomic predictor of lifespan in vertebrates
- tpmx 7y agoThat article title is crap. Edit: the title is fixed now.
- alexgmcm 7y agoI agree, that title is awful given the actual link.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mullingitover 7y ago> In the past 200 years, the average life expectancy of humans has more than doubled because of modern medicine and changes in lifestyle I thought this idea that humans had short lifespans historically was thoroughly debunked. Humans have historically had high infant mortality rates which threw the numbers off, but if you survived past the age of three you were pretty likely to make it to your sixties or seventies.
- pharrington 7y agoYour second sentence directly contradicts your first.
- mullingitover 7y agoMaybe a better way of putting it is that averages are a garbage statistic when looking at these numbers, because they hide the fact that the normal human lifespan is and always has been roughly the same.
- jariel 7y agoInfant mortality, curable disease, violence, famine, bad hygiene, death from things that are maybe not 'curable' in the strict sense, but with the right hygiene, conditions, general treatment - we can cure.
- psychometry 7y agoMortality rate actually reaches its minimum around age 10 or 11, so you would see even longer lifespans if you only look at people who survive at least to their teens.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago> Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away. How old is this proverb?
- hprotagonist 7y agoyoungest is within a 500 year window around the date of the composition of the Psalms (it's psalm 90) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms#Origins
- philipkglass 7y agoIt's true that infant mortality has decreased faster than other mortality in the past century. Even people who survived past infancy had significantly higher mortality rates at the beginning of the 20th century, though. See "Table 6 - Period Life Tables for the Social Security Area by Calendar Year and Sex" for detailed information from the United States: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_studies/study120.pdf https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_studies/study120.pdf In the table series for 1900, male life expectancy at birth was 46.4 years and female life expectancy was 49 years. For the survivors of infant mortality, additional life expectancy at age 6 was 53.2 years and 54.3 years respectively. Most children could not expect to reach their 60th birthday even if they had survived infancy. At age 18, remaining life expectancy was 41.7 and 42.9 years, for total expected age at death of 59.7 and 60.9 years respectively; weighted by sex distribution at age 18, these young adults had an average life expectancy of 60.3 years.
- ColanR 7y agoI don't think that looking at lifespans for the industrial revolution has any bearing on what lifespans used to be 'historically'. It was pretty clear to me, from reading the GP that they were talking about pre-industrial revolution times.
- philipkglass 7y agoRemaining life expectancy at age 18 was even lower in 1800 or 1700, from what I can tell. You can find small exceptions (like aristocrats in particular countries) but I'm not aware of any large (50,000 people or more) preindustrial population where the average teenager could expect to die older than age 60. I would be delighted to see counterexamples. EDIT: This was interesting. "Lifespans of the European Elite, 800–1800". It examines the lifespans of European aristocrats over the thousand years prior to the Industrial Revolution. It limits its analysis to people who reached at least 20 years of age. Per Figure 8, the average lifespan remained below 60 in the entire time period. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-history/article/lifespans-of-the-european-elite-8001800/BE252C4B25C4AAC29ED62D591A1675AC/core-reader https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-...
- abj 7y agoYou're right it's debunked, but even if you take survival rate at age 15 in the Paleolithic era life expectancy was 54 [1]. There were some aristocratic populations that last over 64 at age 21 [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
- caiocaiocaio 7y agoI've certainly seen that on internet, but I don't known of any real research or hard data, and just go to any old graveyard and work out people's ages. Seems like clickbait debunking rather than real debunking.
- duelingjello 7y agoI'd say that lots of kids and infants dying in the past dragged down the average to seem comparatively low compared to today. Of those who lived past 18, I'd wager most adults lived almost as long as today unless an infection or simple mechanical injury happened. Cancer, Alzheimer's, CHD, diabetes' complications and pneumonia gets most people these days. If you live long enough these days, either your heart will give out, your circulatory system will leak and you'll die from shock, you'll get pneumonia or an infection. Finally, the vast majority of end-of-life operations are worse than nothing at all by worsening quality-of-life... hospice is better in most circumstances. PS: follow the holistic/comprehensive list of preventative lifestyle changes for Alzheimer's so you can go out with your mind as intact as possible and stay fit/able-bodied to where you don't need long-term care (LTC). As an example, the grandpa of that young guy from that show Gold Rush; what a full- and active-life that guy had.
- wetpaws 7y agoLife expectancy != maximum lifespan
- otabdeveloper2 7y ago> I thought this idea that humans had short lifespans historically was thoroughly debunked. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” Genesis 6:3. I don't know how old Genesis really is, but 2000 B.C. might be a good enough guess. So yeah, pretty thoroughly.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- shele 7y agoIf the “natural lifespan” of humans ends to be 38 you are using a flawed definition of natural. This also connects to people believe that humans in the past died with 30 latest because the life expectancy was 26 years, ignoring that this is an average heavily influenced by child mortality
- raspasov 7y agoCan we please repeal and replace the title of this with “A genomic predictor of lifespan in vertebrates” (aka the real title) ?
- dang 7y agoYes. The submitted title was "Humans have a natural lifespan of only 38 years", which broke the site guidelines. They ask: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." We've reverted the title now. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- raspasov 7y agothumbs up
- krustyburger 7y ago> Early humans have been reported to have a maximum life expectancy of 40 years, less than half by modern standards. Similarly, in chimpanzees the lifespan was estimated at 39.7 years. The maximum longevity of a chimpanzee in the wild is thought to be of a 55 years old female, however it is reported that many live to approximately 40 years of age. It seems like what we’re really seeing here is the similarity in lifespan between our earliest human ancestors and other primate species. The earliest humans would not yet have had access to consistent shelter, fire or tools/weapons and these developments carried with them enormous benefits with respect to health and comfort.
- hprotagonist 7y agopreviously https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21773562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21773562
- ksydbd_383838 7y agoAt a high level, I am very skeptical. Usually when your model does not agree with observations, the problem is with the model. A few things that stand out to me. I have not thought deeply about any of them, so please correct me if I am mistaken about any of these. > This primary data set contained 252 species from five vertebrate classes [...] We removed humans (Homo sapiens) from the data set as they were listed with a maximum lifespan of 120 years, which does not reflect the variability and the true global average lifespan (60.9–86.3 years) So why should we trust the rest of this dataset? Garbage in garbage (GIGO) out comes to mind. > We used promoter sequences centred around the transcription start site (TSS) (-499 to 100 bp of each promoter) in Humans (Homo sapiens) from the EPD as the data set of promoter sequences. [...] Briefly, as described previously, using Basic Local Alignment Search Tool (BLAST) v2.2.31 the promoter sequences were mapped to the single top hit in each species. This would seem to imply a weird correlation structure between data examples that could pose problems for training/test split and/or linear models. I would also liked to see some QC where they show how well this recovered known (i.e. annotated) promoter regions. Are they picking up false positives? Are they missing stuff? > The glmnet function was set to a 10-fold cross validation which returns the best performing model. [...] This resulted in a total of 42 promoters for estimate lifespan. So they're doing post-selection inference, so p-values are suspect. Tibshirani (inventor of Lasso) and Taylor recently released a package for post-selection inference, which I do not see them using here. > Species were randomly assigned to either a training (176 samples) or testing (76 samples) data set (70/30 split). Rule of thumb: you usually want about number of example = 10x number of features to avoid overfitting. 42 features seems kind of thin. Even worse when you consider that there might be a correlation between training and test examples imposed by the initial selection of promoter sites using BLAST.
- ramblenode 7y ago> > We used promoter sequences centred around the transcription start site (TSS) (-499 to 100 bp of each promoter) in Humans (Homo sapiens) from the EPD as the data set of promoter sequences. [...] Briefly, as described previously, using Basic Local Alignment Search Tool (BLAST) v2.2.31 the promoter sequences were mapped to the single top hit in each species. Measurement error should probably be modeled.
- derefr 7y agoSo, is this suggesting that humans, as an animal species, are basically "engineered" by evolution to have a 38-year flat part of their MTBF bathtub-curve? Where I mean "engineered" in the sense that evolution only can only really steer toward adaptive fitness of an organism up until a certain point in its lifetime, that being the point when the organism has done all the breeding they're going to do. Past that point, most things the organism does won't impact the evolutionary cohort of its species, so, turning that around, there will be no adaptations in its genome to help it survive past that point (since, where would they be sourced from?) That time coming at 38 years for humans would explain a lot, I think. (It makes sense; that's about the oldest average age that humans are willing to continue to have children at.)
- HarryHirsch 7y agowhen the organism has done all the breeding they're going to do You could argue that having older and more experienced individuals around might increase chances for survival for everyone. You'd predict that that effect would be especially pronounced in a species that highly relies on culture, like us humans. Indeed the hypothesis was found true for orcas: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/12/03/1903844116 https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/12/03/1903844116
- seriesf 7y agoYeah but see also “ok boomer”. Sometimes having a lot of old people hanging around leads to mass extinction and the end of civilization.
- derefr 7y agoIt can be true, but for a gene to reach fixation, it has to be selected for, i.e. organisms without it have to die before breeding. So this effect might work out if you have a lot of isolated sub-populations, and the ones that live less long suffer extinction, while the ones that live longer go on to eventually reconnect and breed. But it doesn’t really work in a “liquid market”, because free riders without the longevity genes will be just as successful at breeding (due to the existence of the long-lived species members) as the ones with those genes.
- valw 7y agoTo the experienced data scientists / statisticians here: does this sort of regression analysis between the actual and predicted age seem legit to you? It seems very weird to me. From what I understand, the p-value tests the hypothesis that the predicted and actual data are correlated, which seems like a very weak way of assessing the reliability of the prediction. An estimator of the test error seems more relevant, and that's kind of what the R^2 does, but why do an affine regression between predicted and actual value instead of say an RMS error? Isn't this using the test data for parameter-fitting, i.e training?
- ColanR 7y agoOff topic, but based on the discussions here. I'm seeing a lot of discussion here about how the lifespan of humans (not counting infant and teen mortality rates) may not have improved much in the last thousand years. As a tangential question, does that mean all our medical progress has a) improved infant mortality and b) counteracted the unhealthiness of modern life, and not done much for us beyond that?
- lordnacho 7y agoFrom what I've read that's right. Kids don't die on nearly the same scale, likewise mothers giving birth. Nutrition has gotten better, which helps immune system strength. We know what causes a lot of diseases and can protect against their spread. Both reactively in terms of illnesses people get and in terms of prevention such as vaccines and warnings about smoking. Even then there are records of famous ancient people like Egyptian kings who lived to what we'd still consider a ripe old age now.
- iten 7y agoI recently completed my PhD in vertebrate comparative genomics so this is fun to see. The single most important factor that needs to be accounted for in analyses like these is the correlation between phylogenetic similarity and the trait in question. In short, closely related species will tend to have similar lifespans, and closely related species will tend to have similar CpG density in any fixed genomic region. So the fact that you can predict lifespan from CpG density with enough parameters is unsurprising. You could almost certainly predict lifespan fairly well from any feature measuring phylogenetic similarity -- I would have liked to see some evidence showing that CpG density in these promoters is somehow uniquely suited for the task.
- rflrob 7y agoI wonder whether they also looked at body size. Larger species tend to live longer, so it could just be that their regions are just associated with growth.
- asdff 7y agoThey did not.
- asdff 7y agoThey did mention they were looking at a couple of long lived examples like rockfish that live 200 years vs killifish that live for 1, so this seems to be variable among fish at least. As for mechanism, they were pretty hand wavey but cited reference 33 and mentioned that longer CpG tracts are thought to be protective against spontaneous methylation. Unmethylated CpG islands in promotors are associate with active transcription, especially found in housekeeping genes that are transcribed constantly by definition. Methylating these islands can silence the gene. Makes sense but needs an experiment to know for sure.
- jmpman 7y agoNo comments about dog lifespans? Come on genetic engineering, give me a Labrador that lives 20 years and doesn’t shed.
- asdff 7y agoGet a hairless cat, similar personality actually