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Google Maps has a multi-layered business moat that makes competition really difficult * Massive staff and fleet of vehicles on the ground with multiple sensors

Google Maps has a multi-layered business moat that makes competition really difficult * Massive staff and fleet of vehicles on the ground with multiple sensors mapping the entire planet. Capital costs here are enormous * Massive network and bandwidth with caches in just about every major IX to deliver ultra high performance maps * Major established contracts with satellite mapping vendors to get the best data as early as possible * Major brand recognition with many users using the app and knowing it to be the best of the best I would never want to compete here, but a major institutional player could

lallysingh 7y ago
The moat's draining because more of this data is becoming commodity. OpenStreetmap data is quite good. I can run a local instance with all the data and the tile server and a web server in a docker image in maybe ~10 min. Source: did this a few years ago during a particularly boring meeting.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  What do you mean when you say "all the data"? The full planet takes "a while", even on a huge computer: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql/benchmarks https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql/benchmarks
  - lallysingh 7y ago
    I recall something like an 8gb download that uncompressed to a postgresql db.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      The thing benchmarked in my other comment loads an OSM dump into PostGIS (in 1 particular format, translating the OSM data from an editing/versioning friendly format to something more useful for map making as it goes). The current full planet dump is 84 GB: https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ 8 GB gets you a large region still, depending on how much mapping has been done: http://download.geofabrik.de/ http://download.geofabrik.de/
amundsentb 7y ago
You wouldn't compete on the things that Google does well, but rather on the things they don't. Not saying it is easy. Price and user interaction is something I believe could be improved upon. Also maybe crowd sourcing info.
- asdff 7y ago
  Other pain points include bike routing and unreliable (but still more reliable than any other app I've tried) transit times.
Reason077 7y ago
> ”Google Maps has a multi-layered business moat that makes competition really difficult” OpenStreetMap is going from strength to strength. Maps startups no longer need to duplicate Google's on-the-ground mapping efforts. Now, they can make use of open data. Mapbox is perhaps the most well-known, but there are many commercial services based on OSM data: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Commercial_OSM_Software_and_Services https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Commercial_OSM_Software_...
- criley2 7y ago
  When Pokemon Go switched from Gmaps to OSM, the quality drop was dramatic and noticeable. I want OSM to be a real competitor, but I think it represents a perfect example of how difficult it is to compete with Google Maps. It counts as "Good Enough", but man, it's disappointing to see how inferior Pokemon Go maps are these days. Roads that don't exist, buildings in random places with roads going through them, and map data that seems manipulated for game advantage (by players contributing to OSM for gameplay reasons, not for accuracy reason) ... and this is in the midtown area of a top 10 US city.
  - Reason077 7y ago
    > "Roads that don't exist, buildings in random places with roads going through them" This is unfortunate and surprising. In my experience (mostly UK/Europe) the quality of street data in OSM matches, and in some cases exceeds that of Google Maps. (Points-of-interest data does not, however). If you do notice errors and omissions, fixes can be made in seconds by getting an OSM account and clicking the "edit" button on OpenStreetMap.org. In recent years the development of the "ID" editor has significantly lowered the barriers to entry of editing OSM. > "map data that seems manipulated for game advantage" Perhaps OSM needs some sort of Wikipedia-style spam detection/prevention if this is happening on a wide scale.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      If you do notice errors and omissions, fixes can be made in seconds by getting an OSM account and clicking the "edit" button on OpenStreetMap.org. In recent years the development of the "ID" editor has significantly lowered the barriers to entry of editing OSM. This is the same argument that keeps every year from being the year of Linux on the desktop. "My computer crashed!" "Oh, just become a Linux kernel developer and fix it yourself."
pja 7y ago
It’s kind of ironic that Google Maps is so bad at some things then. Walking & Cycling directions are especially bad - I get much better directions from OSM than I do from Google Maps. For driving directions GMaps is much better. I presume that’s where the majority of their userbase is.
- brewdad 7y ago
  GMaps driving directions failed HARD for me last night. I had to make a trip during rush hour. I was already going to be cutting it close on timing as this is a 12 minute drive that can take 15-20 minutes at rush hour. I plugged in my destination and GMaps routed me a way I would rarely take but didn't seem too odd. One block past my last alternate route, I saw the lights ahead. There was a 4 car crash with at least 5 emergency vehicles on scene about 1/2 mile ahead. GMaps had no clue and I had no choice but to inch through about 10 light cycles to reach the turn Gmaps wanted me to take. The 15 minute trip took me 35 minutes. Thanks for nothing.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    You mean, there was an edge case where Google didn't have real-life data for a specific accident available for you? This is an extreme case that we wouldn't even expect to exist a few years ago, (and then got annoyed by passive surveillance) but now gmaps is failing for missing it? Is this the new norm? Did you mark the accident yourself when you saw it?
    - CamperBob2 7y ago
      He shouldn't need to mark it. Maps can tell that its users are spending 20 minutes to get through a single intersection.
      - viraptor 7y ago
        If you have enough users with gmaps on that segment, it will happen. Can we guarantee there was enough in that situation?
CrazyStat 7y ago
You're talking about competing as a consumer map/gps, which is not what the blog post is talking about (or the parent comment, I assume). Rather, GMaps used to be the default choice if you wanted to build an app on top of a map (in this case, looking at the effects of nuclear bomb detonations). The blog post explains why GMaps is no longer a reasonable choice, which (as the parent notes) opens up room for competitors.
buboard 7y ago
all of these services sound like things a bunch of different startups would compete to provide. doesn't google outsource stuff?
mackrevinack 7y ago
"mapping the entire planet" that's not true though. I know from doing HOTOSM that there are quite a lot places where there is only a road or two going through it only google maps but there is actually a city/town there. there are some counties where Google Street view cars have never even visited.

lallysingh 7y ago

The moat's draining because more of this data is becoming commodity. OpenStreetmap data is quite good. I can run a local instance with all the data and the tile server and a web server in a docker image in maybe ~10 min. Source: did this a few years ago during a particularly boring meeting.

maxerickson 7y ago
What do you mean when you say "all the data"? The full planet takes "a while", even on a huge computer: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql/benchmarks https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql/benchmarks
- lallysingh 7y ago
  I recall something like an 8gb download that uncompressed to a postgresql db.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    The thing benchmarked in my other comment loads an OSM dump into PostGIS (in 1 particular format, translating the OSM data from an editing/versioning friendly format to something more useful for map making as it goes). The current full planet dump is 84 GB: https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ 8 GB gets you a large region still, depending on how much mapping has been done: http://download.geofabrik.de/ http://download.geofabrik.de/

amundsentb 7y ago

You wouldn't compete on the things that Google does well, but rather on the things they don't. Not saying it is easy. Price and user interaction is something I believe could be improved upon. Also maybe crowd sourcing info.

asdff 7y ago
Other pain points include bike routing and unreliable (but still more reliable than any other app I've tried) transit times.

Reason077 7y ago

> ”Google Maps has a multi-layered business moat that makes competition really difficult” OpenStreetMap is going from strength to strength. Maps startups no longer need to duplicate Google's on-the-ground mapping efforts. Now, they can make use of open data. Mapbox is perhaps the most well-known, but there are many commercial services based on OSM data: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Commercial_OSM_Software_and_Services https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Commercial_OSM_Software_...

criley2 7y ago
When Pokemon Go switched from Gmaps to OSM, the quality drop was dramatic and noticeable. I want OSM to be a real competitor, but I think it represents a perfect example of how difficult it is to compete with Google Maps. It counts as "Good Enough", but man, it's disappointing to see how inferior Pokemon Go maps are these days. Roads that don't exist, buildings in random places with roads going through them, and map data that seems manipulated for game advantage (by players contributing to OSM for gameplay reasons, not for accuracy reason) ... and this is in the midtown area of a top 10 US city.
- Reason077 7y ago
  > "Roads that don't exist, buildings in random places with roads going through them" This is unfortunate and surprising. In my experience (mostly UK/Europe) the quality of street data in OSM matches, and in some cases exceeds that of Google Maps. (Points-of-interest data does not, however). If you do notice errors and omissions, fixes can be made in seconds by getting an OSM account and clicking the "edit" button on OpenStreetMap.org. In recent years the development of the "ID" editor has significantly lowered the barriers to entry of editing OSM. > "map data that seems manipulated for game advantage" Perhaps OSM needs some sort of Wikipedia-style spam detection/prevention if this is happening on a wide scale.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    If you do notice errors and omissions, fixes can be made in seconds by getting an OSM account and clicking the "edit" button on OpenStreetMap.org. In recent years the development of the "ID" editor has significantly lowered the barriers to entry of editing OSM. This is the same argument that keeps every year from being the year of Linux on the desktop. "My computer crashed!" "Oh, just become a Linux kernel developer and fix it yourself."

pja 7y ago

It’s kind of ironic that Google Maps is so bad at some things then. Walking & Cycling directions are especially bad - I get much better directions from OSM than I do from Google Maps. For driving directions GMaps is much better. I presume that’s where the majority of their userbase is.

brewdad 7y ago
GMaps driving directions failed HARD for me last night. I had to make a trip during rush hour. I was already going to be cutting it close on timing as this is a 12 minute drive that can take 15-20 minutes at rush hour. I plugged in my destination and GMaps routed me a way I would rarely take but didn't seem too odd. One block past my last alternate route, I saw the lights ahead. There was a 4 car crash with at least 5 emergency vehicles on scene about 1/2 mile ahead. GMaps had no clue and I had no choice but to inch through about 10 light cycles to reach the turn Gmaps wanted me to take. The 15 minute trip took me 35 minutes. Thanks for nothing.
- viraptor 7y ago
  You mean, there was an edge case where Google didn't have real-life data for a specific accident available for you? This is an extreme case that we wouldn't even expect to exist a few years ago, (and then got annoyed by passive surveillance) but now gmaps is failing for missing it? Is this the new norm? Did you mark the accident yourself when you saw it?
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    He shouldn't need to mark it. Maps can tell that its users are spending 20 minutes to get through a single intersection.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      If you have enough users with gmaps on that segment, it will happen. Can we guarantee there was enough in that situation?

CrazyStat 7y ago

You're talking about competing as a consumer map/gps, which is not what the blog post is talking about (or the parent comment, I assume). Rather, GMaps used to be the default choice if you wanted to build an app on top of a map (in this case, looking at the effects of nuclear bomb detonations). The blog post explains why GMaps is no longer a reasonable choice, which (as the parent notes) opens up room for competitors.

buboard 7y ago

all of these services sound like things a bunch of different startups would compete to provide. doesn't google outsource stuff?

mackrevinack 7y ago

"mapping the entire planet" that's not true though. I know from doing HOTOSM that there are quite a lot places where there is only a road or two going through it only google maps but there is actually a city/town there. there are some counties where Google Street view cars have never even visited.