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> However rationally I think there is a balance. There is a balance. I know this is Hacker News and we're all supposed to be progressive technical vanguards fi

by ydb 7y ago

> However rationally I think there is a balance. There is a balance. I know this is Hacker News and we're all supposed to be progressive technical vanguards fighting against The Man, but genuine bad guys exist out there. And we need to protect ourselves from them. This isn't a case of an innocent man going to prison just so we can jail a hundred criminals. This is giving up a modicum of privacy in order to make the world safer for everybody. I think that's entirely reasonable.

kelnos 7y ago
The feds were able to do police work just fine before everyone had a tracking device in their pocket. They'd do just fine if Google would stop storing this data and there was no way to get it.
earthshot 7y ago
HN does have a lot of fellow libertarians (and leftists) who oppose surveillance states. But you make a good point, that authoritarian violence has always been popular, all throughout history. It is no surprise that people like you still romanticize the notion of state violence and greater authoritarian power. Fascism is always popular amongst certain types.
- Der_Einzige 7y ago
  This boy crying wolf bullshit of accusing everyone of being a fascist means that when it really happens here no one will believe it. Is our government getting increasingly Authoritarian and Repressive? Yes. Are we anywhere near fascism? Fucking no
  - earthshot 7y ago
    Thank you for sharing your opinion that I can't bring up fascism until there's a full on fucking genocide. It takes a special kind of stupid to blame rising fascism on people who warn about fascism. You are that stupid. In every country that had an authoritarian takeover (and there are a LOT!), there were people noting the problem early, and there were worthless pieces of shit like you who didn't want to hear it. Go fuck yourself.
  - earthshot 7y ago
    "well he was warning that there was a wolf, but in fact it was just a few wolf cubs. Nobody ever could've foreseen that they'd grow into wolves!
- ydb 7y ago
  > It is no surprise that people like you still romanticize the notion of state violence and greater authoritarian power. I think that's a grave misunderstanding of my analysis and one entirely rooted in your own bias. Nowhere in my comment did I romanticize any state violence; at worst you could accuse me of engaging in ethically dubious moral calculus. Authoritarian power will always be present no matter what label you identify yourself with. A world built on libertarianism can easily devolve into a competition of whoever has the biggest stick -- the NAP and other such pie-in-the-sky ideas only get you so far. Re: leftists, I think you have a skewed understanding of leftism and its origins. The lumpenproletariat are the real obstacle that leftists need to overcome. See for example the election this past day in Britain; Boris Johnson was elected by an overwhelming majority on no other grounds besides a rabid fear rooted in nationalism. If leftists hope to see genuine change that fits their ideology, they're going to need to deal with the folks who succumb to conservative propaganda. Here again comes the spectre of authoritarian power. Eventually we must face the reality that power and violence are integral to human social functioning, and that if betraying privacy is what it takes to avoid that, you'd have to be a radical ideologue -- on either side -- to choose otherwise.
raxxorrax 7y ago
> And we need to protect ourselves from them. This isn't rational, this is purely emotional. This could be a statement from a police officer that did see some awful criminals, but that would be filed under being emotionally compromised. If you look on large scale threats to the general population, this kind of surveillance poses a much bigger risk.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
> genuine bad guys exist out there. And we need to protect ourselves from them. I doubt this is about protecting people or preventing crime. Justice comes after the fact and is all about retribution. Depending on the crime, the damage done by perpetrators can never be undone. > This is giving up a modicum of privacy in order to make the world safer for everybody. How far will you go? Would you give up all privacy for safety? What if society's idea of safety doesn't align with yours?

by ydb 7y ago

kelnos 7y ago

The feds were able to do police work just fine before everyone had a tracking device in their pocket. They'd do just fine if Google would stop storing this data and there was no way to get it.

earthshot 7y ago

HN does have a lot of fellow libertarians (and leftists) who oppose surveillance states. But you make a good point, that authoritarian violence has always been popular, all throughout history. It is no surprise that people like you still romanticize the notion of state violence and greater authoritarian power. Fascism is always popular amongst certain types.

Der_Einzige 7y ago
This boy crying wolf bullshit of accusing everyone of being a fascist means that when it really happens here no one will believe it. Is our government getting increasingly Authoritarian and Repressive? Yes. Are we anywhere near fascism? Fucking no
- earthshot 7y ago
  Thank you for sharing your opinion that I can't bring up fascism until there's a full on fucking genocide. It takes a special kind of stupid to blame rising fascism on people who warn about fascism. You are that stupid. In every country that had an authoritarian takeover (and there are a LOT!), there were people noting the problem early, and there were worthless pieces of shit like you who didn't want to hear it. Go fuck yourself.
- earthshot 7y ago
  "well he was warning that there was a wolf, but in fact it was just a few wolf cubs. Nobody ever could've foreseen that they'd grow into wolves!
ydb 7y ago
> It is no surprise that people like you still romanticize the notion of state violence and greater authoritarian power. I think that's a grave misunderstanding of my analysis and one entirely rooted in your own bias. Nowhere in my comment did I romanticize any state violence; at worst you could accuse me of engaging in ethically dubious moral calculus. Authoritarian power will always be present no matter what label you identify yourself with. A world built on libertarianism can easily devolve into a competition of whoever has the biggest stick -- the NAP and other such pie-in-the-sky ideas only get you so far. Re: leftists, I think you have a skewed understanding of leftism and its origins. The lumpenproletariat are the real obstacle that leftists need to overcome. See for example the election this past day in Britain; Boris Johnson was elected by an overwhelming majority on no other grounds besides a rabid fear rooted in nationalism. If leftists hope to see genuine change that fits their ideology, they're going to need to deal with the folks who succumb to conservative propaganda. Here again comes the spectre of authoritarian power. Eventually we must face the reality that power and violence are integral to human social functioning, and that if betraying privacy is what it takes to avoid that, you'd have to be a radical ideologue -- on either side -- to choose otherwise.

raxxorrax 7y ago

> And we need to protect ourselves from them. This isn't rational, this is purely emotional. This could be a statement from a police officer that did see some awful criminals, but that would be filed under being emotionally compromised. If you look on large scale threats to the general population, this kind of surveillance poses a much bigger risk.

matheusmoreira 7y ago

> genuine bad guys exist out there. And we need to protect ourselves from them. I doubt this is about protecting people or preventing crime. Justice comes after the fact and is all about retribution. Depending on the crime, the damage done by perpetrators can never be undone. > This is giving up a modicum of privacy in order to make the world safer for everybody. How far will you go? Would you give up all privacy for safety? What if society's idea of safety doesn't align with yours?