6 ms·

I am a woman, and this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else. It seems to m

I am a woman, and this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else. It seems to me that if you have a genuine passion for STEM stuff, it takes a lot more than a bad environment to completely redirect your career path. Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whatever stuff in their life, and they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. It might sound harsh, but I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping these displaced women in STEM; if their interest isn't strong enough to overcome a bad environment, then maybe they just weren't that interested to begin with. That's not a bad thing, it just means that they misjudged the interest:difficulty ratio. Of the cases I know of personally, most of these women ended up in a job working fairly close with STEM stuff, writing manuals, doing graphic design, etc, and are perfectly fine with those jobs. To be clear, I'm not accounting for cases where an entire university or business or whatever is made up of toxic sexism, but that's been pretty uncommon in my experience in the US. Women of STEM: if you've got a bad environment, do something about it! Tell your higher-ups, talk to people directly, seek a different position, endure what you can, and for God's sake stand up for yourself. tl;dr the implication that most women in STEM can't handle a toxic work environment without giving up entirely doesn't seem that progressive at all NB disclaimer, most people I know are computer scientists, plus a few mathematicians, so maybe engineering is different

WalterBright 7y ago
> Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whatever stuff in their life, and they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. I grew up in an era when kids interested in STEM were "nerds" and were harassed, denigrated, and had lower social status. This changed when Bill Gates made his first billion. Suddenly, people realized that STEM was a ticket to the good life. The title of the documentary "Triumph of the Nerds" was no accident. A Seattle local comedy show "Almost Live" regularly ran skits about Microsoft engineers being socially inept and unable to get dates. (Of course, the joke turned out to be on Almost Live, as the super wealthy Microsoft engineers transformed the city.) I suppose my point is that men who liked STEM had persevered in spite of the negative image of it.
- bitwize 7y ago
  Was Almost Live the source of the skit "Studs from Microsoft"? Microsoft used to ship that skit as a demonstration video on their Microsoft Video API MSDN CDs. EDIT: Found a Raymond Chen blog entry confirming that the skit was indeed from Almost Live -- and it featured Bill Nye.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOSdFBfpSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOSdFBfpSQ First aired in 1992. I miss that show. Cops in Redmond is another classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxGDSucCEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxGDSucCEI
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      It's really too bad they never released a compilation DVD set of it. AL is consistently funnier than SNL. Much of the humor is local, though.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        My favorite is the 425 area code skit, with a snobby lady (in character) complaining about Renton being in the same area code as Bellevue. No one outside of the Seattle area would ever get that joke, however. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jlo4Ht2YA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jlo4Ht2YA Done in the same style as the WSU drinking ban...another later classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kozfrph9LU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kozfrph9LU Or Bill Nye as a street walking lawyer on Aurora avenue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgAgPnrJAuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgAgPnrJAuQ They put everything on YouTube. No need for a dvd :)
        WalterBright 7y ago
        sweet!
  - 7y ago
whack 7y ago
> this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else I don't think it is sexist at all to claim that some people would not want to be in a field because of its hostile work environment. I sure wouldn't. Factually debatable? Sure. But sexist? > It might sound harsh, but I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping these displaced women in STEM; if their interest isn't strong enough to overcome a bad environment, then maybe they just weren't that interested to begin with I'm not a woman, but I am a person of color. And if anyone expressed those exact sentiments about people of color, I would never want to be around that person again. "I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping displaced minorities in my field. If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with. It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in". Can you even imagine someone saying that? And yet, I hear the same sentiments being directed towards women constantly. Ironically enough, you and I probably agree on most things. I don't think the STEM field is "toxic" or any worse than any other profession. At most companies I've worked, both management and other engineers made great efforts to be welcoming and friendly to women. That said, misogyny and hostile work environments do exist, and when it happens, we need to make sure we blame the culprits and not the victims.
- throwaway09851 7y ago
  > If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with I did not say "put up with", I said "deal with", which includes many options other than accepting what you're given. If your workplace discriminates on the basis of race, you could report them for violation of anti-discrimination laws, lobby for stronger laws, leave the workplace for a better one, etc. > It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in Exactly what I just discussed, maybe in an ideal world such things shouldn't be your responsibility, but the only way to guarantee action is to take it. If someone pushes you into a puddle, you might be right to say that it shouldn't be your responsibility to remove yourself from that situation, as you did not put yourself into it, but I think most would agree that the right course of action is to deal with it yourself anyways. I am not suggesting that the responsibility falls solely on women or minorities to deal with their own problems at all, but I am suggesting that they should take some agency of their own.
stale2002 7y ago
> they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. Yes, it is true that if someone is really passionate about something, then they will put up with a lot of bad things and problems. But I am confused as to why you think this is a valid argument as for why society shouldn't try to solve these problems. There is still a lot of value in fixing problems, so that people who would be otherwise interested, will want to join.

WalterBright 7y ago

> Every woman I know with a genuine and deep interest in STEM subjects has had to deal with some level of toxic/sexist/whatever stuff in their life, and they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. I grew up in an era when kids interested in STEM were "nerds" and were harassed, denigrated, and had lower social status. This changed when Bill Gates made his first billion. Suddenly, people realized that STEM was a ticket to the good life. The title of the documentary "Triumph of the Nerds" was no accident. A Seattle local comedy show "Almost Live" regularly ran skits about Microsoft engineers being socially inept and unable to get dates. (Of course, the joke turned out to be on Almost Live, as the super wealthy Microsoft engineers transformed the city.) I suppose my point is that men who liked STEM had persevered in spite of the negative image of it.

bitwize 7y ago
Was Almost Live the source of the skit "Studs from Microsoft"? Microsoft used to ship that skit as a demonstration video on their Microsoft Video API MSDN CDs. EDIT: Found a Raymond Chen blog entry confirming that the skit was indeed from Almost Live -- and it featured Bill Nye.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOSdFBfpSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOSdFBfpSQ First aired in 1992. I miss that show. Cops in Redmond is another classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxGDSucCEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxGDSucCEI
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    It's really too bad they never released a compilation DVD set of it. AL is consistently funnier than SNL. Much of the humor is local, though.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      My favorite is the 425 area code skit, with a snobby lady (in character) complaining about Renton being in the same area code as Bellevue. No one outside of the Seattle area would ever get that joke, however. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jlo4Ht2YA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jlo4Ht2YA Done in the same style as the WSU drinking ban...another later classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kozfrph9LU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kozfrph9LU Or Bill Nye as a street walking lawyer on Aurora avenue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgAgPnrJAuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgAgPnrJAuQ They put everything on YouTube. No need for a dvd :)
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        sweet!
- 7y ago

whack 7y ago

> this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else I don't think it is sexist at all to claim that some people would not want to be in a field because of its hostile work environment. I sure wouldn't. Factually debatable? Sure. But sexist? > It might sound harsh, but I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping these displaced women in STEM; if their interest isn't strong enough to overcome a bad environment, then maybe they just weren't that interested to begin with I'm not a woman, but I am a person of color. And if anyone expressed those exact sentiments about people of color, I would never want to be around that person again. "I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping displaced minorities in my field. If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with. It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in". Can you even imagine someone saying that? And yet, I hear the same sentiments being directed towards women constantly. Ironically enough, you and I probably agree on most things. I don't think the STEM field is "toxic" or any worse than any other profession. At most companies I've worked, both management and other engineers made great efforts to be welcoming and friendly to women. That said, misogyny and hostile work environments do exist, and when it happens, we need to make sure we blame the culprits and not the victims.

throwaway09851 7y ago
> If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with I did not say "put up with", I said "deal with", which includes many options other than accepting what you're given. If your workplace discriminates on the basis of race, you could report them for violation of anti-discrimination laws, lobby for stronger laws, leave the workplace for a better one, etc. > It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in Exactly what I just discussed, maybe in an ideal world such things shouldn't be your responsibility, but the only way to guarantee action is to take it. If someone pushes you into a puddle, you might be right to say that it shouldn't be your responsibility to remove yourself from that situation, as you did not put yourself into it, but I think most would agree that the right course of action is to deal with it yourself anyways. I am not suggesting that the responsibility falls solely on women or minorities to deal with their own problems at all, but I am suggesting that they should take some agency of their own.

stale2002 7y ago

> they persevered and dealt with it because they weren't going to let it get in the way of their passion. Yes, it is true that if someone is really passionate about something, then they will put up with a lot of bad things and problems. But I am confused as to why you think this is a valid argument as for why society shouldn't try to solve these problems. There is still a lot of value in fixing problems, so that people who would be otherwise interested, will want to join.