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Gender equality means you can enter into whatever profession you choose and not be discriminated against. It's about equal rights, equal treatment, it does not

Gender equality means you can enter into whatever profession you choose and not be discriminated against. It's about equal rights, equal treatment, it does not mean that men and women are the same, it's not a mathematical equality. Seems to me people are confusing conformity with social/political equality.

blunte 7y ago
This is exactly the point. Freedom to direct your energies toward your personal passion _without artificial restraints_ is equality.
- malandrew 7y ago
  > _without artificial restraints_ What constitutes an artificial restraint? For classical liberals, that means being free from the constraint imposed by other individuals. Today the definition of "restraints" is being expanded beyond the artificial to the point where everything is being declared a "human right" without any consideration for the fact that some of those things can only be provided by taking from someone else (resources and/or labor). Basically, more and more people feel that people should be free from natural restraints like the responsibility of having to provide for oneself (or at least trying to). But the rub is that the only way to free some people from those natural restraints is bondage of others to provide for them.
  - blunte 7y ago
    An artificial constraint is one that exists outside of your personal capability. If you are capable of solving the toughest scientific or technical challenges, but you are prevented from doing so because of some attribute of your circumstance (your color, your gender, your age, your wealth level, your current job title, etc.), then you are being artificially restrained. If you can solve the toughest challenge, but you choose not to because you would rather throw clay on a pottery wheel, then you are also free from constraints. (There are plenty of people that are practically forced into careers because they are technically capable, and because their elders believe that if one can, one should.)
    - edmundsauto 7y ago
      Under this definition, how would you classify geography? Many people could contribute to America's top level countries but are not able to because of immigration policies.
      - blunte 7y ago
        Human made geographical boundaries (borders) are usually artificial, and they certainly can impact freedom of people on both sides. Unfortunately, solving immigration and creating "one world" is exceedingly difficult or even impossible - especially when most countries (including the US) still have enough corruption that they are internally broken without even considering pressure from immigration.
  - james-mcelwain 7y ago
    Taxation isn't bondage.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      If I'm taxed at 100%, is it bondage?
OJFord 7y ago
I agree that's how it should be, but what we actually have instead is quotas and targets.
allovernow 7y ago
>It's about equal rights, equal treatment, it does not mean that men and women are the same, it's not a mathematical equality. Sure, perhaps in theory. In practice, the kind of differences in performance and achievement that would be explained by psychological and physiological differences between men and women are immediately blamed on discrimination and the like. There is an implicit assumption that men and women are mathematically equal, which leads to the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of outcome, exaggerating the effects of discrimination and leading to poor allocation of resources in an attempt to correct a "problem" without consideration for part of all of the actual cause.
- throwaway8548 7y ago
  > the kind of differences in performance and achievement that would be explained by psychological and physiological differences between men and women That's a bit of circular reasoning though. - Look how men and women behave differently! - But why do they behave differently? - Because they're different. - How do you know that? - Because they behave differently. It's not logically consistent and doesn't answer anything.
  - calibas 7y ago
    Are observable differences not the basis of empirical science?
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Which differences. There is the genitalia that nobody argues with. Likewise testosterone differences. Pretty much everything else isn't as clear cut. We know that more men than women go into STEM - but we don't know if it is because men fundamentally like those jobs better, or if it is because our culture makes it less acceptable for women to go into STEM. Often culture things are subtle and people will say things that do not match their actions.
      - jakelazaroff 7y ago
tenpies 7y ago
That's now what Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity initiatives at companies, universities, and governments are aiming for though. It's quotas for everyone and anything other than 50% females and 50% or more of "minorities" [in quotations since this is the vaguest term ever] means there is rampant racism and sexism in this toxic patriarchy.

blunte 7y ago

This is exactly the point. Freedom to direct your energies toward your personal passion _without artificial restraints_ is equality.

malandrew 7y ago
> _without artificial restraints_ What constitutes an artificial restraint? For classical liberals, that means being free from the constraint imposed by other individuals. Today the definition of "restraints" is being expanded beyond the artificial to the point where everything is being declared a "human right" without any consideration for the fact that some of those things can only be provided by taking from someone else (resources and/or labor). Basically, more and more people feel that people should be free from natural restraints like the responsibility of having to provide for oneself (or at least trying to). But the rub is that the only way to free some people from those natural restraints is bondage of others to provide for them.
- blunte 7y ago
  An artificial constraint is one that exists outside of your personal capability. If you are capable of solving the toughest scientific or technical challenges, but you are prevented from doing so because of some attribute of your circumstance (your color, your gender, your age, your wealth level, your current job title, etc.), then you are being artificially restrained. If you can solve the toughest challenge, but you choose not to because you would rather throw clay on a pottery wheel, then you are also free from constraints. (There are plenty of people that are practically forced into careers because they are technically capable, and because their elders believe that if one can, one should.)
  - edmundsauto 7y ago
    Under this definition, how would you classify geography? Many people could contribute to America's top level countries but are not able to because of immigration policies.
    - blunte 7y ago
      Human made geographical boundaries (borders) are usually artificial, and they certainly can impact freedom of people on both sides. Unfortunately, solving immigration and creating "one world" is exceedingly difficult or even impossible - especially when most countries (including the US) still have enough corruption that they are internally broken without even considering pressure from immigration.
- james-mcelwain 7y ago
  Taxation isn't bondage.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    If I'm taxed at 100%, is it bondage?

OJFord 7y ago

I agree that's how it should be, but what we actually have instead is quotas and targets.

allovernow 7y ago

>It's about equal rights, equal treatment, it does not mean that men and women are the same, it's not a mathematical equality. Sure, perhaps in theory. In practice, the kind of differences in performance and achievement that would be explained by psychological and physiological differences between men and women are immediately blamed on discrimination and the like. There is an implicit assumption that men and women are mathematically equal, which leads to the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of outcome, exaggerating the effects of discrimination and leading to poor allocation of resources in an attempt to correct a "problem" without consideration for part of all of the actual cause.

throwaway8548 7y ago
> the kind of differences in performance and achievement that would be explained by psychological and physiological differences between men and women That's a bit of circular reasoning though. - Look how men and women behave differently! - But why do they behave differently? - Because they're different. - How do you know that? - Because they behave differently. It's not logically consistent and doesn't answer anything.
- calibas 7y ago
  Are observable differences not the basis of empirical science?
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Which differences. There is the genitalia that nobody argues with. Likewise testosterone differences. Pretty much everything else isn't as clear cut. We know that more men than women go into STEM - but we don't know if it is because men fundamentally like those jobs better, or if it is because our culture makes it less acceptable for women to go into STEM. Often culture things are subtle and people will say things that do not match their actions.
    - jakelazaroff 7y ago

tenpies 7y ago

That's now what Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity initiatives at companies, universities, and governments are aiming for though. It's quotas for everyone and anything other than 50% females and 50% or more of "minorities" [in quotations since this is the vaguest term ever] means there is rampant racism and sexism in this toxic patriarchy.