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What if they talk with someone while walking through a forest? Should that also be forbidden, because it's difficult to spy on?

by deogeo 7y ago

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
I’m not saying end to end encryption should be forbidden, just that it’s a toxic argument to go “haha, stupid law enforcement doesn’t realize there are already places that are hard to spy on!” Of course there are, nobody thinks otherwise.
- deogeo 7y ago
  So what makes E2E encryption different, that the same arguments don't apply to other difficult-to-spy-on places? I think people should be made acutely aware it's not an assault on encryption - it's an assault on their right to keep secrets at all.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    The difference is that, unlike forests and private spaces, (easy and consumer-grade) E2E encryption is new. Law enforcement is concerned that adding this new thing to society will change things for the worse. That's a reasonable concern in general, even if we don't think it's true in this specific case. You don't have a general right to keep secrets from law enforcement. With a warrant, they can spy on you to try and get your secrets in ways that would otherwise be scandalous or downright illegal. If you don't think law enforcement should be allowed to steal people's secrets at all, fair enough, but that's a very radical view and I don't think most people supporting E2E encryption share it.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      Cameras and phone surveillance and miniature microphones are also new. When technology encroaches upon privacy, "that's just the way things are!", but when it protects it, "it's new and different and must be restricted!". More to your point, I do think law enforcement should be allowed to spy on people when necessary (by whatever definition of 'necessary'). But that's a far cry from saying that people should be compelled to assist in the spying. There's no warrant to compel someone to knowingly carry a bug.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      Novelty is not an arguement against rights. Just because some in every generation is stupid enough to think so doesn't mean we should acknowledge it.

What if they talk with someone while walking through a forest? Should that also be forbidden, because it's difficult to spy on?

by deogeo 7y ago

What if they talk with someone while walking through a forest? Should that also be forbidden, because it's difficult to spy on?

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

I’m not saying end to end encryption should be forbidden, just that it’s a toxic argument to go “haha, stupid law enforcement doesn’t realize there are already places that are hard to spy on!” Of course there are, nobody thinks otherwise.

deogeo 7y ago
So what makes E2E encryption different, that the same arguments don't apply to other difficult-to-spy-on places? I think people should be made acutely aware it's not an assault on encryption - it's an assault on their right to keep secrets at all.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  The difference is that, unlike forests and private spaces, (easy and consumer-grade) E2E encryption is new. Law enforcement is concerned that adding this new thing to society will change things for the worse. That's a reasonable concern in general, even if we don't think it's true in this specific case. You don't have a general right to keep secrets from law enforcement. With a warrant, they can spy on you to try and get your secrets in ways that would otherwise be scandalous or downright illegal. If you don't think law enforcement should be allowed to steal people's secrets at all, fair enough, but that's a very radical view and I don't think most people supporting E2E encryption share it.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    Cameras and phone surveillance and miniature microphones are also new. When technology encroaches upon privacy, "that's just the way things are!", but when it protects it, "it's new and different and must be restricted!". More to your point, I do think law enforcement should be allowed to spy on people when necessary (by whatever definition of 'necessary'). But that's a far cry from saying that people should be compelled to assist in the spying. There's no warrant to compel someone to knowingly carry a bug.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Novelty is not an arguement against rights. Just because some in every generation is stupid enough to think so doesn't mean we should acknowledge it.