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This is a tough lesson for engineers to learn, but whether you are right or not doesn't even really matter, it's the relationships and how you present it. I cri

This is a tough lesson for engineers to learn, but whether you are right or not doesn't even really matter, it's the relationships and how you present it. I cringed when I ready about going over your manager's head in front of all the other managers. Life at work is not a code review where everyone is equal and you get to +1 and -1 everyone's ideas.

loopz 7y ago
Should be a minor problem, unless the leaders are psychopaths, which they obviously were in the story so worthless of any effort.
- fred_is_fred 7y ago
  If you have to take every problem to a VP or council of managers that means that you are ineffective and unable to sway anyone with your ideas. If the site is truly down like he said and his manager won't fix it, he should let his manager take the fall after raising it. Nobody thanks the messenger in a situation like this.
  - loopz 7y ago
    Most problem and change requests should not require manager involvement at all. In practice though, an org tend to optimize for top-brass to micromanage more and more (see: Scrum and "Agile"). You will be told to solve the issues, while higher-ups make all the shots, unwittingly causing some long-term trouble. If you correctly identify gaps and skillfully tell the right managers, they will be very glad for you pointing out risks and suggestions. Just don't expect too much at once and play the long-term game.
- hollandheese 7y ago
  I'd bet most leaders in large corporations are psychopaths.
matwood 7y ago
> This is a tough lesson for engineers to learn, but whether you are right or not doesn't even really matter, it's the relationships and how you present it. Relationships are everything. How you tell someone they are wrong is important. You can shear a sheep over and over, but only skin it once. If you're going to skin someone, understand you're also ending a relationship. Every person is different. At an old job everyone in the office thought a coworker and I hated each other. They would hear the fights coming out of our office while we fought for our ideas around a whiteboard. The reality is that we were great friends and still talk 15 years later. But, we knew each other and how to interact with each other. The people I work with now are different types of people, and would not respond that sort of interaction. Finally, many decisions are not right/wrong or black/white. In fact any of number of solutions could typically work. If someone else is really passionate about their idea, then let them run with it. Either it works - great! Or it doesn't work and we loop back around to a different idea.
dimgl 7y ago
Sorry, but I absolutely hate this. Especially considering we're talking about businesses. It's crazy that in this thread the consensus is that you have to manage people and relationships at the expense of being pragmatic and exposing the truth. Sometimes, especially in the startup world, decisions need to be made because it's make or break. And if your boss is wholly incompetent and they're the ones calling the shots, they will take the entire company down with them. Or worse: you get blamed for their failures and then you get sacked. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career and I'll gladly speak the truth and get fired or forced to leave than sit around and watch an incompetent leader run the entire company to the ground while I stand idly by, doing grunt work and fighting all of the fires they create.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Better, then to just leave. You aren't the only one who knows, you are just the only one who insists on talking. Go somewhere else where competence is welcome. There are pockets of it everywhere. The only reason incompetence works is the crowds around holding things together. If everyone dispersed, the bad ones would drop through the floor. Staying enables them.
  - dimgl 7y ago
    Just saw this comment but I wish I had seen it earlier: I did just that. Cheers.
crimsonalucard 7y ago
HN enforces this as a system and a contract similar to how agile enforces a certain philosophy. Perhaps something similar can be done for how to build a company of managers that must answer to the +1 -1 system. Something between a union and unionless company.

loopz 7y ago

Should be a minor problem, unless the leaders are psychopaths, which they obviously were in the story so worthless of any effort.

fred_is_fred 7y ago
If you have to take every problem to a VP or council of managers that means that you are ineffective and unable to sway anyone with your ideas. If the site is truly down like he said and his manager won't fix it, he should let his manager take the fall after raising it. Nobody thanks the messenger in a situation like this.
- loopz 7y ago
  Most problem and change requests should not require manager involvement at all. In practice though, an org tend to optimize for top-brass to micromanage more and more (see: Scrum and "Agile"). You will be told to solve the issues, while higher-ups make all the shots, unwittingly causing some long-term trouble. If you correctly identify gaps and skillfully tell the right managers, they will be very glad for you pointing out risks and suggestions. Just don't expect too much at once and play the long-term game.
hollandheese 7y ago
I'd bet most leaders in large corporations are psychopaths.

matwood 7y ago

> This is a tough lesson for engineers to learn, but whether you are right or not doesn't even really matter, it's the relationships and how you present it. Relationships are everything. How you tell someone they are wrong is important. You can shear a sheep over and over, but only skin it once. If you're going to skin someone, understand you're also ending a relationship. Every person is different. At an old job everyone in the office thought a coworker and I hated each other. They would hear the fights coming out of our office while we fought for our ideas around a whiteboard. The reality is that we were great friends and still talk 15 years later. But, we knew each other and how to interact with each other. The people I work with now are different types of people, and would not respond that sort of interaction. Finally, many decisions are not right/wrong or black/white. In fact any of number of solutions could typically work. If someone else is really passionate about their idea, then let them run with it. Either it works - great! Or it doesn't work and we loop back around to a different idea.

dimgl 7y ago

Sorry, but I absolutely hate this. Especially considering we're talking about businesses. It's crazy that in this thread the consensus is that you have to manage people and relationships at the expense of being pragmatic and exposing the truth. Sometimes, especially in the startup world, decisions need to be made because it's make or break. And if your boss is wholly incompetent and they're the ones calling the shots, they will take the entire company down with them. Or worse: you get blamed for their failures and then you get sacked. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career and I'll gladly speak the truth and get fired or forced to leave than sit around and watch an incompetent leader run the entire company to the ground while I stand idly by, doing grunt work and fighting all of the fires they create.

ncmncm 7y ago
Better, then to just leave. You aren't the only one who knows, you are just the only one who insists on talking. Go somewhere else where competence is welcome. There are pockets of it everywhere. The only reason incompetence works is the crowds around holding things together. If everyone dispersed, the bad ones would drop through the floor. Staying enables them.
- dimgl 7y ago
  Just saw this comment but I wish I had seen it earlier: I did just that. Cheers.

crimsonalucard 7y ago

HN enforces this as a system and a contract similar to how agile enforces a certain philosophy. Perhaps something similar can be done for how to build a company of managers that must answer to the +1 -1 system. Something between a union and unionless company.