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It feels like this comment and the other comments in this thread are all dancing around the same issue: The problem is incompetent people getting ahold of power

It feels like this comment and the other comments in this thread are all dancing around the same issue: The problem is incompetent people getting ahold of power in an organization. How that comes to pass makes little difference: maybe they have personal connections to leadership, maybe they just got lucky and failed upward, whatever it might be: as soon as leadership fails in their jobs in this way, i.e. promoting the incompetent, then the company is already dead. These people are like a cancer, and just like a cancer, as their influence grows and their power grows, the patient, the business, suffers. Sometimes businesses can last years, decades, with a number of these tumors if they're controlled, or if the business is just so healthy that it can take the strain they put upon it. But in my mind, as soon as competence takes a back seat to who you know, as soon as that line is crossed by any member of the company leadership, then that's the end. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And this one I don't know how to solve. Were I a C level executive in a company, I'd constantly have my eyes out for this kind of shit, and excise it as soon as I could. But it seems most C-levels don't care all that much. Maybe I wouldn't if I was at that level.

WalterBright 7y ago
The trouble is, everyone thinks their boss is incompetent.
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  I don't. Our upper management is incompetent because they are so removed from what we actually do, and show no interest in learning about it. But my immediate manager is very far from incompetent.
  - User23 7y ago
    This is universally true of all upper management. See the SNAFU principle[1] [1] http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html
- Supermancho 7y ago
  Thats not true. I have worked in many teams and organizations where manaagement and direct supervisors are well regarded. There are inevitably comparative weak links, but thats not the same as incompetence.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  I don't. He can be a bit of a space cadet at times and sometimes get stuck on the wrong things, but I would never call him incompetent.
- StillBored 7y ago
  The place I work now has a good mix of hyper-competent 1st level managers. Its almost weird, but for sure its a result of the expectation that "team leads" or whatever you want to call them are also managers. I'm not sure I agree with having the technical guy be the personal manager, but when they only have a couple direct reports a good percentage seem be able to herd the cats semi competently. That isn't to say there aren't plenty of disasters, but when it works, it works fairly well. I guess you just have to be willing to throw away some of your best technical people when it turns out they don't make good managers, or they turn into just another layer of middle mgmt that needs to be cut in a few years.
- scruple 7y ago
  Is there a distinction between competency and being any good at your job? I would hesitate to call (most of) my management chain incompetent. I would also hesitate to call (most of) my management any good at their job.
- yibg 7y ago
  That's not true. In fact I think ALL of my previous bosses have been extremely competent and super smart. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe I've had realistic expectations.
- Xelbair 7y ago
  I don't - my boss is great person, good manager and great programmer. My team, boss included, is one of few reasons keeping me at this company.
- watwut 7y ago
  Not true. I had good bosses, neutral bosses and bad boss. Narrowly dodged awful one.
- polymatter 7y ago
  I think its fairer to say you can only appreciate a truely competent boss once you have suffered an incompetent one.
basch 7y ago
It's very possible they are good at something youre not perceptive to. That also might be the C-Suite attitude, that if they select only for what they think is performant, they lose diversity of ideas. Too often, the response to perceiving someones incompetence is the perceiver shutting down, instead of taking a rising-tide-raises-all-boats attitude. I'ts a cultural failure to keep people that only try and make people (they self select as competent) better. In the case of the op story. It was clear management, maybe the business, not technical leadership, asked for a new product. Saying "our old product does that" is missing the forest for the trees. It's evaluating the idea too quickly. It's rowing upstream, when they are asking everyone else to row down. When they are looking for momentum, and the details come later, that person can derail the process. The reason they started working in secret, where everybody in the company but op knew, is that op was disruptive to the culture of trying. They were too pragmatic, too literal, too technical. Sit down, listen to what management is asking for, then go work on a pitch, where your delivery is "we can deliver what you are asking for (and also reuse most of our old work, saving you time and money!) Be on their team, not in opposition to it. Replace but with yes, and at the beginning of sentences.
- kvark 7y ago
  Well said! At the same time, it's sad to live in the world were being honest and straightforward pays off so poorly.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
    One person's straightforward is another person's rude. Delivery matters!
    - brokenmachine 7y ago
      If we're talking about what's best for the company, then only the relevance of the facts should matter. Up to a certain point, of course. But all this talk of how to deliver information so the recipient feels nice about receiving bad feedback (shit sandwiches and such) shouldn't matter.
edmundsauto 7y ago
Maybe they aren't incompetent; that's a story we tell ourselves. The choices, as I see them: own responsibility for making sure the recipient understands our communications. If they don't, that's on me. If they do, but don't do what I want... I can either accept their decision or move on. I know changing jobs is hard, but all I can control is to communicate better (differently! and with compassion/empathy!) or leave.
ck425 7y ago
I disagree. No one magically becomes good at their job and management is a different job to engineering. Inevitably every manager is going to suck atleast a little for a period of time. What we need is more training and culture around feedback at work.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

WalterBright 7y ago

The trouble is, everyone thinks their boss is incompetent.

brokenmachine 7y ago
I don't. Our upper management is incompetent because they are so removed from what we actually do, and show no interest in learning about it. But my immediate manager is very far from incompetent.
- User23 7y ago
  This is universally true of all upper management. See the SNAFU principle[1] [1] http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SNAFUprinciple.html
Supermancho 7y ago
Thats not true. I have worked in many teams and organizations where manaagement and direct supervisors are well regarded. There are inevitably comparative weak links, but thats not the same as incompetence.
FussyZeus 7y ago
I don't. He can be a bit of a space cadet at times and sometimes get stuck on the wrong things, but I would never call him incompetent.
StillBored 7y ago
The place I work now has a good mix of hyper-competent 1st level managers. Its almost weird, but for sure its a result of the expectation that "team leads" or whatever you want to call them are also managers. I'm not sure I agree with having the technical guy be the personal manager, but when they only have a couple direct reports a good percentage seem be able to herd the cats semi competently. That isn't to say there aren't plenty of disasters, but when it works, it works fairly well. I guess you just have to be willing to throw away some of your best technical people when it turns out they don't make good managers, or they turn into just another layer of middle mgmt that needs to be cut in a few years.
scruple 7y ago
Is there a distinction between competency and being any good at your job? I would hesitate to call (most of) my management chain incompetent. I would also hesitate to call (most of) my management any good at their job.
yibg 7y ago
That's not true. In fact I think ALL of my previous bosses have been extremely competent and super smart. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe I've had realistic expectations.
Xelbair 7y ago
I don't - my boss is great person, good manager and great programmer. My team, boss included, is one of few reasons keeping me at this company.
watwut 7y ago
Not true. I had good bosses, neutral bosses and bad boss. Narrowly dodged awful one.
polymatter 7y ago
I think its fairer to say you can only appreciate a truely competent boss once you have suffered an incompetent one.

basch 7y ago

It's very possible they are good at something youre not perceptive to. That also might be the C-Suite attitude, that if they select only for what they think is performant, they lose diversity of ideas. Too often, the response to perceiving someones incompetence is the perceiver shutting down, instead of taking a rising-tide-raises-all-boats attitude. I'ts a cultural failure to keep people that only try and make people (they self select as competent) better. In the case of the op story. It was clear management, maybe the business, not technical leadership, asked for a new product. Saying "our old product does that" is missing the forest for the trees. It's evaluating the idea too quickly. It's rowing upstream, when they are asking everyone else to row down. When they are looking for momentum, and the details come later, that person can derail the process. The reason they started working in secret, where everybody in the company but op knew, is that op was disruptive to the culture of trying. They were too pragmatic, too literal, too technical. Sit down, listen to what management is asking for, then go work on a pitch, where your delivery is "we can deliver what you are asking for (and also reuse most of our old work, saving you time and money!) Be on their team, not in opposition to it. Replace but with yes, and at the beginning of sentences.

kvark 7y ago
Well said! At the same time, it's sad to live in the world were being honest and straightforward pays off so poorly.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  One person's straightforward is another person's rude. Delivery matters!
  - brokenmachine 7y ago
    If we're talking about what's best for the company, then only the relevance of the facts should matter. Up to a certain point, of course. But all this talk of how to deliver information so the recipient feels nice about receiving bad feedback (shit sandwiches and such) shouldn't matter.

edmundsauto 7y ago

Maybe they aren't incompetent; that's a story we tell ourselves. The choices, as I see them: own responsibility for making sure the recipient understands our communications. If they don't, that's on me. If they do, but don't do what I want... I can either accept their decision or move on. I know changing jobs is hard, but all I can control is to communicate better (differently! and with compassion/empathy!) or leave.

ck425 7y ago

I disagree. No one magically becomes good at their job and management is a different job to engineering. Inevitably every manager is going to suck atleast a little for a period of time. What we need is more training and culture around feedback at work.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]