4 ms·

(couldn't read the article - firewalled) Concerning Switzerland (other countries are probably similar, e.g. Germany) (from https://awa.zh.ch/internet/volkswirt

(couldn't read the article - firewalled) Concerning Switzerland (other countries are probably similar, e.g. Germany) (from https://awa.zh.ch/internet/volkswirtschaftsdirektion/awa/en/standortfoerderung/lebensraum/_jcr_content/contentPar/downloadlist/downloaditems/2191_1503661875697.spooler.download.1503661503347.pdf/zuerichabisz_e.pdf https://awa.zh.ch/internet/volkswirtschaftsdirektion/awa/en/... ): When registering in the municipality of residence, you will be asked about your religious denomination. In the Canton of Zurich, members of the Evangelical-Reformed (Protestant), the Roman-Catholic and the Christian-Catholic Church are required to pay church taxes. Church tax is levied along with the income tax and tax on assets. It amounts to between 8 and 16 percent of the cantonal base tax (“einfache Staatsteuer”) for members of the Catholic Church, between 7 and 15 percent for members of the Evangelical-Reformed (Protestant) Church and 14 percent for members of the Christian-Catholic Church. As I already pay that, and as it's not a small amount, I was hoping that at least what I donate directly whenever I'm in the Church (the small box into which people put their donations - don't know how it's called), was used exclusively for the poor and not for something else?

jacquesm 7y ago
The whole 'kirchensteur' thing has me pissed of to the nth degree. What other private entity has managed to get the government to do their subscriptions collection for them based on the amount the person earned? It's beyond ridiculous. Churches should pay taxes, not use the government to levy their tithe as though it is a tax. In Germany and a bunch of other EU countries this phenomenon exists as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax The sooner this is abolished the better.
- tobias3 7y ago
  What annoys me even more is that in Germany e.g. the wages of bishops are directly payed for by the state. Only priests and lower levels are payed via church taxes. As usual it's a stupid historic thing dating back to 1803 and not one has touched it since (It is "compenstation" for a one-time transfer of church property to the states in compensation for France taking German territory).
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  Churches shouldn't pay taxes, but yeah, having the government collect the tithe seems like not enough separation between church/state. Even still, as long as the tax isn't compulsory for non-believers and the countries in question are generally happy with it, it doesn't seem like a very big deal. FWIW, in the US and elsewhere, we have ideologies like Critical Race Theory which are not discernibly different from religions (certainly more religion than sociology or research) and which are taxpayer funded. (And no, this is not the same thing as religious studies programs--studying a religion/ideology is not the same thing as promoting, producing, and enforcing it).
  - literallycancer 7y ago
    Why shouldn't they? They do business and make profit just like any other corporation, but somehow at the end they don't get taxed because certain kinds of delusional people get a pass?
- lopmotr 7y ago
  What's really wrong with that? The government already has the systems in place to collect tax so it sounds more efficient than trying to do it privately. In my country the tax system is also used to collect student loan repayments even though it's not tax, but it probably saves on administrative costs that way. Sure, student loans are also the government, not a private organization, but maybe it could be opened up to businesses as a way to collect recurring or income related payments! Imagine the accuracy of price discrimination you could achieve with access to that.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Separation of church and state is a thing.
    - iudqnolq 7y ago
      In some countries
- gumby 7y ago
  In Germany at least you can opt out. I was surprised and even shocked that when my mother in law was out of the hospital after cancer treatment the Diakonie (social welfare connected to protestant church and funded by those taxes) showed up twice a day to change her dressing, make sure she was fed and administered her meds. And she was not a churchgoer. Made a huge difference. Despite that I still agree those taxes should't exist and also agree that no organizations should be exempt from taxation.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    The cynic in me is suggesting that people that just had cancer treatment are excellent parties to be nice to on the off chance that they'll put you in their will, the optimist is happy that religion can show its good side every now and then.
born2discover 7y ago
Be careful about generalization though. In Switzerland the "ecclesiastic tax" is not a federal matter but a cantonal one and in some cantons even a communal one. In some cantons it is mandatory, in others it isn't and a mere request addressed to the proper authority can be enough for you not to pay it. For example in Valais while most people pay it, you are not obligated to do so.
AcerbicZero 7y ago
I had no idea this was a thing. I can't say I've done much research, but it seems like it was voted on as recently as 2014, and the ~70% population voted to keep it? I assume it must be providing some sort of public good if its got that kind of approval.

jacquesm 7y ago

The whole 'kirchensteur' thing has me pissed of to the nth degree. What other private entity has managed to get the government to do their subscriptions collection for them based on the amount the person earned? It's beyond ridiculous. Churches should pay taxes, not use the government to levy their tithe as though it is a tax. In Germany and a bunch of other EU countries this phenomenon exists as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax The sooner this is abolished the better.

tobias3 7y ago
What annoys me even more is that in Germany e.g. the wages of bishops are directly payed for by the state. Only priests and lower levels are payed via church taxes. As usual it's a stupid historic thing dating back to 1803 and not one has touched it since (It is "compenstation" for a one-time transfer of church property to the states in compensation for France taking German territory).
throwaway894345 7y ago
Churches shouldn't pay taxes, but yeah, having the government collect the tithe seems like not enough separation between church/state. Even still, as long as the tax isn't compulsory for non-believers and the countries in question are generally happy with it, it doesn't seem like a very big deal. FWIW, in the US and elsewhere, we have ideologies like Critical Race Theory which are not discernibly different from religions (certainly more religion than sociology or research) and which are taxpayer funded. (And no, this is not the same thing as religious studies programs--studying a religion/ideology is not the same thing as promoting, producing, and enforcing it).
- literallycancer 7y ago
  Why shouldn't they? They do business and make profit just like any other corporation, but somehow at the end they don't get taxed because certain kinds of delusional people get a pass?
lopmotr 7y ago
What's really wrong with that? The government already has the systems in place to collect tax so it sounds more efficient than trying to do it privately. In my country the tax system is also used to collect student loan repayments even though it's not tax, but it probably saves on administrative costs that way. Sure, student loans are also the government, not a private organization, but maybe it could be opened up to businesses as a way to collect recurring or income related payments! Imagine the accuracy of price discrimination you could achieve with access to that.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Separation of church and state is a thing.
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    In some countries
gumby 7y ago
In Germany at least you can opt out. I was surprised and even shocked that when my mother in law was out of the hospital after cancer treatment the Diakonie (social welfare connected to protestant church and funded by those taxes) showed up twice a day to change her dressing, make sure she was fed and administered her meds. And she was not a churchgoer. Made a huge difference. Despite that I still agree those taxes should't exist and also agree that no organizations should be exempt from taxation.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  The cynic in me is suggesting that people that just had cancer treatment are excellent parties to be nice to on the off chance that they'll put you in their will, the optimist is happy that religion can show its good side every now and then.

born2discover 7y ago

Be careful about generalization though. In Switzerland the "ecclesiastic tax" is not a federal matter but a cantonal one and in some cantons even a communal one. In some cantons it is mandatory, in others it isn't and a mere request addressed to the proper authority can be enough for you not to pay it. For example in Valais while most people pay it, you are not obligated to do so.

AcerbicZero 7y ago

I had no idea this was a thing. I can't say I've done much research, but it seems like it was voted on as recently as 2014, and the ~70% population voted to keep it? I assume it must be providing some sort of public good if its got that kind of approval.