5 ms·

Same and same. The goal in the case of churches (not within the context of an extra-church structure) is that the pastor can focus on the process of pastor-ing

Same and same. The goal in the case of churches (not within the context of an extra-church structure) is that the pastor can focus on the process of pastor-ing, and it's considered a good thing when s/he can do it full-time.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
But it goes against the Biblical model of a pastor being a tentmaker (as Paul was, recorded in Acts) and often the pastor has a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation, which opposes the commonality taught in Acts too, IMO. Having a separate paid pastor also moves towards the idea that the pastor has a special place wrt to God, which again opposes New Testament teaching. My current pastor, until his retirement worked for a pharma company, he was a drug dealer! (Medicinal and legal drugs, of course).
- tomrod 7y ago
  Tangent: can I ask that we not impose views on what constitutes proper societal patterns from religiously held texts in the Hacker space? For the Christian bible specifically and for religious texts generally there are often an abundance of equally supported interpretations, so much so that there are dedicated categories of academic debate and study (hermeneutics) and colloquial approaches (proof-texting) that are of general interest. I've seen some great discussion places become hot messes quick when social norms are interpreted from religious texts.
  - mulmen 7y ago
    The context here is church organizations that ostensibly teach based on the New Testament so the GP comment seems completely appropriate. If someone suggests devoting 10% of your commit messages to worshiping our (their) lord and savior then your comment would be more relevant.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    FWIW, I was careful to state it went against the model of Paul being a tentmaker, and not that this model had primacy, nor that it was exclusive. The Church is a very different beast now.
    - tomrod 7y ago
      My apologies, I applied my note to your comment in haste and in error. While I still would love proscription on prescription, I wholly acknowledge that you were not making a religious based normative claim and thus said proscription would not apply. Cheers!
- mulmen 7y ago
  In my personal experience with organized religion in general and the Catholic Church specifically the teachings of the scripture are wholly irrelevant to the actions of the church. Even if we could all agree on the meaning of the scripture.
- javagram 7y ago
  On the other hand Paul explicitly says that he isn’t taking what he could rightfully do. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+9... > 13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? > 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. > 15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. So FWIW, I don’t believe having my priest receive a salary from the church goes against New Testament teaching. It just doesn’t conform with Paul’s personal example. There are also priests in the church who receive a salary from doing a more normal job, like being a professor at a college, but they typically don’t do nearly as much pastoral work as a priest who is assigned directly to a church.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Yes, it isn't heterodox, just not inline with Paul's model of eldership. FWIW the whole notion of priests (but not paid workers), seems flatly contradictory to Christ's "tearing of the veil".
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  Perhaps. :) My goal was to provide context on a “this is how they see it” factual basis versus trying to comment on its cultural or ecclesiastical validity.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > often the pastor has a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation The sum total of everyone paid to work for the church I attend (pastors, musicians, cantor; plus the costs associated with some of the services (baptisms, etc); work out to less than a single reasonably well-earning household in the area. I don't think the priests themselves are making a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

But it goes against the Biblical model of a pastor being a tentmaker (as Paul was, recorded in Acts) and often the pastor has a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation, which opposes the commonality taught in Acts too, IMO. Having a separate paid pastor also moves towards the idea that the pastor has a special place wrt to God, which again opposes New Testament teaching. My current pastor, until his retirement worked for a pharma company, he was a drug dealer! (Medicinal and legal drugs, of course).

tomrod 7y ago
Tangent: can I ask that we not impose views on what constitutes proper societal patterns from religiously held texts in the Hacker space? For the Christian bible specifically and for religious texts generally there are often an abundance of equally supported interpretations, so much so that there are dedicated categories of academic debate and study (hermeneutics) and colloquial approaches (proof-texting) that are of general interest. I've seen some great discussion places become hot messes quick when social norms are interpreted from religious texts.
- mulmen 7y ago
  The context here is church organizations that ostensibly teach based on the New Testament so the GP comment seems completely appropriate. If someone suggests devoting 10% of your commit messages to worshiping our (their) lord and savior then your comment would be more relevant.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  FWIW, I was careful to state it went against the model of Paul being a tentmaker, and not that this model had primacy, nor that it was exclusive. The Church is a very different beast now.
  - tomrod 7y ago
    My apologies, I applied my note to your comment in haste and in error. While I still would love proscription on prescription, I wholly acknowledge that you were not making a religious based normative claim and thus said proscription would not apply. Cheers!
mulmen 7y ago
In my personal experience with organized religion in general and the Catholic Church specifically the teachings of the scripture are wholly irrelevant to the actions of the church. Even if we could all agree on the meaning of the scripture.
javagram 7y ago
On the other hand Paul explicitly says that he isn’t taking what he could rightfully do. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+9... > 13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? > 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. > 15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. So FWIW, I don’t believe having my priest receive a salary from the church goes against New Testament teaching. It just doesn’t conform with Paul’s personal example. There are also priests in the church who receive a salary from doing a more normal job, like being a professor at a college, but they typically don’t do nearly as much pastoral work as a priest who is assigned directly to a church.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Yes, it isn't heterodox, just not inline with Paul's model of eldership. FWIW the whole notion of priests (but not paid workers), seems flatly contradictory to Christ's "tearing of the veil".
lukeqsee 7y ago
Perhaps. :) My goal was to provide context on a “this is how they see it” factual basis versus trying to comment on its cultural or ecclesiastical validity.
RHSeeger 7y ago
> often the pastor has a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation The sum total of everyone paid to work for the church I attend (pastors, musicians, cantor; plus the costs associated with some of the services (baptisms, etc); work out to less than a single reasonably well-earning household in the area. I don't think the priests themselves are making a significantly higher wage than much of the congragation.