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I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills,

by ken 7y ago

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

imgabe 7y ago
Your time isn't free. Doubly so when you are spending it to benefit someone else.
rifung 7y ago
> I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. Some people are more passionate about their jobs than others no matter the discipline. I love my job but it's still just something I do to fund my actual dreams/passion. Why would I spend more time on it than I need to when I already feel like I don't have enough time for my own interests?
darkwater 7y ago
Well, not doing it on your own time is the exact point of the article linked. I mean, if you want to pivot into a completely different career in a completely different company you should do it on your own, sure, but GP wants to change position within the same company, and wants to move in an understaffed department. Why should they do it on their time and dime?
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Well maybe talk to the backend lead at the same time. His own team lead <> the company and the company might not even realize it. From the pov of his own team lead, it might be a purely damaging move (has to find alternative, has to explain to upper management, etc.). TBH I wouldn't expect any manager (especially it's just a lead, not even a mgr) to sacrifice for my own benefit. I thank them and provide material reward if they do, but I'm 100% with them (and study on my own, then leave the company) if they don't. It has to be mutually beneficial, or at least looks like. So my feeling is that both OP and his team leader are not good at communication.
whatshisface 7y ago
Isn't capital expenditure usually the company's responsibility? If you wanted to have nothing but opex you would rent all of your equipment and hire contractors - but that would get expensive quick.
- formercoder 7y ago
  Though paying an engineer to learn a new skill is not going to be capex on a financial statement. If it was companies would be more willing to do it.
piva00 7y ago
There is a difference between: 1. learning outside of work for your own personal enjoyment; 2. learning for professional growth and; 3. for professional needs. Category 1 is where learning for free, at anytime is valuable, you are doing it as a hobby or as a personal curiosity, so taking your own time for that is fun and enjoyable. Category 2 is murky, I've definitely done a lot of studying on my own dime to improve myself or learn technologies I could apply on my day-to-day work but... When I could I did it on company's time, on this category I'm using my time for something that will have a direct return to the company, if I can get paid for it I'd always choose so. Category 3 SHOULD NEVER be done on your own time. This mentality of needing to use your own time to do any kind of professional development only fosters the race to the bottom, where you are required to use your own time to improve yourself because the company you work for is only interested in extracting maximum value out of your billable hours... I agree that in the parent's comment case they could have used some of their free time to improve their backend skills and then try a lateral move in their job but it shouldn't make you "amazed" that someone isn't willing to sacrifice their free time to earn a little bit more of salary while their company extracts a higher multiple out of that same work.
ghaff 7y ago
You can do stuff on your own time, especially if it's pretty much orthogonal to your day job. But I expect any job to include material time for relevant/adjacent training. Otherwise, it's in the same category as hiring manager expectations that you're working in open source in GitHub repos in your spare time.
raxxorrax 7y ago
I do too, but in a large amount of cases the skills I want to learn in my own time often only tangentially relate to the skills I maybe should acquire to become a better worker at my current job. Unrelated stuff like painting, modeling and playing an instrument. Most of it is still software related, but not specifically to my job. Getting that out of your head from time to time seems to help. Of course there are compromises, but certainly not most of the time. If companies want efficient and capable workers, they have to be willing to train themselves. We are < 500 people and are currently building a training center just for that purpose (not software focused). Granted, a culture where job hopping is common, that can come at a steep price.
shantly 7y ago
I think spending about a third of my waking hours thinking about stupid computer shit is already plenty. If an employer doesn't want to help me use some of that time to get better at what I do, I bet someone else does.
whateveracct 7y ago
I don't want to spend my time outside work hours developing skills needed for my job. That's effectively the job stealing my time and money.
- randomidiot666 7y ago
  And those who do, have a competitive edge over you. It's an investment in yourself that qualifies you to leave and find a better paying job.
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    Leaving and finding a better paying job is already Easy Enough after a few years at one place regardless. I've got better ways to spend my time for my career and life than learning things for the benefit of my current employer.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - piva00 7y ago
    If you end up in that spiral you will never get out of it, there will always be someone else working harder than you on improving some skill. Time is the only thing you have in life, use it wisely and balanced.

by ken 7y ago

imgabe 7y ago

Your time isn't free. Doubly so when you are spending it to benefit someone else.

rifung 7y ago

> I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. Some people are more passionate about their jobs than others no matter the discipline. I love my job but it's still just something I do to fund my actual dreams/passion. Why would I spend more time on it than I need to when I already feel like I don't have enough time for my own interests?

darkwater 7y ago

Well, not doing it on your own time is the exact point of the article linked. I mean, if you want to pivot into a completely different career in a completely different company you should do it on your own, sure, but GP wants to change position within the same company, and wants to move in an understaffed department. Why should they do it on their time and dime?

markus_zhang 7y ago
Well maybe talk to the backend lead at the same time. His own team lead <> the company and the company might not even realize it. From the pov of his own team lead, it might be a purely damaging move (has to find alternative, has to explain to upper management, etc.). TBH I wouldn't expect any manager (especially it's just a lead, not even a mgr) to sacrifice for my own benefit. I thank them and provide material reward if they do, but I'm 100% with them (and study on my own, then leave the company) if they don't. It has to be mutually beneficial, or at least looks like. So my feeling is that both OP and his team leader are not good at communication.

whatshisface 7y ago

Isn't capital expenditure usually the company's responsibility? If you wanted to have nothing but opex you would rent all of your equipment and hire contractors - but that would get expensive quick.

formercoder 7y ago
Though paying an engineer to learn a new skill is not going to be capex on a financial statement. If it was companies would be more willing to do it.

piva00 7y ago

There is a difference between: 1. learning outside of work for your own personal enjoyment; 2. learning for professional growth and; 3. for professional needs. Category 1 is where learning for free, at anytime is valuable, you are doing it as a hobby or as a personal curiosity, so taking your own time for that is fun and enjoyable. Category 2 is murky, I've definitely done a lot of studying on my own dime to improve myself or learn technologies I could apply on my day-to-day work but... When I could I did it on company's time, on this category I'm using my time for something that will have a direct return to the company, if I can get paid for it I'd always choose so. Category 3 SHOULD NEVER be done on your own time. This mentality of needing to use your own time to do any kind of professional development only fosters the race to the bottom, where you are required to use your own time to improve yourself because the company you work for is only interested in extracting maximum value out of your billable hours... I agree that in the parent's comment case they could have used some of their free time to improve their backend skills and then try a lateral move in their job but it shouldn't make you "amazed" that someone isn't willing to sacrifice their free time to earn a little bit more of salary while their company extracts a higher multiple out of that same work.

ghaff 7y ago

You can do stuff on your own time, especially if it's pretty much orthogonal to your day job. But I expect any job to include material time for relevant/adjacent training. Otherwise, it's in the same category as hiring manager expectations that you're working in open source in GitHub repos in your spare time.

raxxorrax 7y ago

I do too, but in a large amount of cases the skills I want to learn in my own time often only tangentially relate to the skills I maybe should acquire to become a better worker at my current job. Unrelated stuff like painting, modeling and playing an instrument. Most of it is still software related, but not specifically to my job. Getting that out of your head from time to time seems to help. Of course there are compromises, but certainly not most of the time. If companies want efficient and capable workers, they have to be willing to train themselves. We are < 500 people and are currently building a training center just for that purpose (not software focused). Granted, a culture where job hopping is common, that can come at a steep price.

shantly 7y ago

I think spending about a third of my waking hours thinking about stupid computer shit is already plenty. If an employer doesn't want to help me use some of that time to get better at what I do, I bet someone else does.

whateveracct 7y ago

I don't want to spend my time outside work hours developing skills needed for my job. That's effectively the job stealing my time and money.

randomidiot666 7y ago
And those who do, have a competitive edge over you. It's an investment in yourself that qualifies you to leave and find a better paying job.
- whateveracct 7y ago
  Leaving and finding a better paying job is already Easy Enough after a few years at one place regardless. I've got better ways to spend my time for my career and life than learning things for the benefit of my current employer.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- piva00 7y ago
  If you end up in that spiral you will never get out of it, there will always be someone else working harder than you on improving some skill. Time is the only thing you have in life, use it wisely and balanced.